Kyokushin: Warrior Karate or Sportsman Karate?

[RASor]

Osu Groucho,

I see your point. Indeed it would be a problem for any Sensei or Senpai to have a student conform to remain in the sport aspect. This is were the imagination, skills and expertise of an instructor must come in.

Pushing the student to a higher threshold of endurance, stamina and strength. Confidence building, skills and technique training and pain endurance and management. These may be some methods/strategies for upgrading and building a strong will and determination for achievement in the student, by making him appreciate, understand and integrate the "Budo" in their Karate.

After all the culminating activity of any Kata or Sport activity is in the application of the fine techniques learned in genuine hard "Kumite" (i.e., ultimate test).

This is the direction, this is where the student should be directed.

I appreciate your keen observation and sharing Sir Groucho. Osu.

[Groucho]

True, many options exist, and the ideal resolution would be for the "sport" students to see what it is that the budo students are doing and by sheer repeated contact/observation realize that this is the essence of the art they've undertaken...

Having thought this whole thing over (and thanks to everyone for posting their thoughts...) I can see where it might actually be beneficial to have those sport sections in a club, just for the sake of being able to have a good training facility available for those of us for whom Kyokushin is the only way...

In North America at least, there are those who'd take this up as a hobby just to stay in shape...dabblers, if you will. These people will happily pay to train at any school that will push them, but not too hard, teach them to defend themselves, but not too realistically. The average KK dojo would likely tell such people "sorry, that isn't what we do", but why? The dojo rent still has to be paid...so do we "evolve" Kyokushin and let the chips fall where they may?

I can't see that as a good thing...

[Kykushin86]

I think that both the things are right

[RASor]

Osu Groucho,

"I can't see that as a good thing..." I too see this as something not good. But how does one go against evolution. All must evolve, especially under a competitive environment (which Kyokushin Karate now suffers).

"Survival of the fittest" does not necessarily mean the "Strongest" it could be the more flexible, pliable, adaptable and acceptable in a community and Society. Dojos with lots of members survives, those having a few have to subsidize their cost and sooner if not later close.

I am reminded of the Samurai of Old Japan, great men who have lived "Bushido" all their lives. Later on foreign civilization and the industrial revolution crept in and took away their way of life. Samurai became "Ronin", hunger had taken away the best in them. A hungry man's stomach blinds his mind from seeing its time honored principles in order to beg or steal a little sustenance to survive. So now the true Art of the Samurai was tempered down to adopt into present Japanese Society. Gone are the days of the Proud Samurai Warriors walking down the streets of Japan with swords at ready.

I can only hope our path with Kyokushin Karate does not move the direction of the Samurai Warrior. After all we are in a better situation, with computer technology and e-data sharing, a worldwide solution or strategy could be determined by those affected. A solution to preserve our True Kyokushin Karate.

So do we "let the chips fall where they may?" My answer is No!

Because we could set our direction, "issues" are known and we can address it together.

Wishing you the best. Osu!

[Groucho]

Osu, RASor

I agree with you, and yet think that if anything, Kyokushin-based Karate might do well to take a slight step backward, and bring the old-school training back...to make our styles once again "the strongest karate"

The evolutionary step I would advocate (you know, the next time Matsui, Royama, Hasegawa, Midori and I get together for beers...) would be to accept the inevitable and spin off a Kyokushin form geared entirely to sport karate, but named something else.

Why? The best of both worlds. Our dojos become stronger, training improves simply due to better facilities, and those truly called to budo karate have easy access, as our dojos won't be closing every year or so.

[Kyokushin555]

Osu both Rasor and Groucho,

I have been away for a while training and have not been able to post. But I have been reading your posts and agree with much of what you say. But one of you siad that after about 3 years one starts to understand the concept of Budo, but I think some dont. In my Goju-Ryu style there is a purple belt which is before brown. He has been doing Karate for just over three years. Yet my teacher still complains that he is to sloppy. Goju-ryu means hardSoft-style. He always complains that he is to soft. That he never puts any effort into his movements. He always jokes around in class and is told to do countless push ups. I belive what you say is true, but I also believe some people never learn.

About the strongest Karate thing. What you said about that is true aswell. I have the movies strongest Karate 1 and 2 and when I see them train the way they did. There was no complaining. They trained sometimes even to the point of exhaustion or to the point to when they would faint. They also directly quote from that movie that if there was a slight slowing in the pace of the movements or there was less effort put in it, you were hit with a punishing blow from the shinai. I don't know to many school that still use the Shinai, I know my school does cause my teacher has been doing Kyokushin for over 35 years and he still trains the same way.

[RASor]

Osu Groucho,

Your wisdom has added more light to the direction our Honbu is pursuing. I am sure much fruit will be harvested as we plant new seeds on the bare land that was once filled with aged old strong trees (i.e., Strongest Karate - Kyokushin Karate-do).

Soon we will flourish and become stronger. Our sharing has made us better by understanding and creating a collective solution to the problem. I am grateful.

Now, hopefully the different Heads of the different Kyokushin Schools and branches would learn to do the same and comunicate with one another; to live by the words of the Dojo Kun and not to just speak it.

Then all Kyokushin practitioners will be happy and strong. United again under one Kyokushin Karate - Sosai Masutatsu Oyama's Kyokushin Karate (the true Budo Karate).

Osu.

[RASor]

Osu Kyokushin555,

In my Goju-Ryu style there is a purple belt which is before brown. He has been doing Karate for just over three years. Yet my teacher still complains that he is to sloppy. Goju-ryu means hardSoft-style. He always complains that he is to soft. That he never puts any effort into his movements. He always jokes around in class and is told to do countless push ups. I belive what you say is true, but I also believe some people never learn.

Let me quote from a posting in the Internet by Sensei Ligo's Budo Karate House Uchideshi Program (under Kyokushinkan Kancho Royama):

"Ironically, they quit and Budo Karate House got stronger. Their departure cleared the slate for guys like current dormitory residents Jarrett McIntyre and Robert Schnoes, to live and train without having to live in the dormitory with its pair of dormitory tough guys who were failing to get with the program all the way into to the end of the 2nd and 3rd years here. And the new students are amazed. "One of them asks, you mean he only had six weeks left to graduate, and he quit? ... I'd never quit if I'd already been through 940 days here!""

"At heart they were not bad guys and they're not exactly weak either. They were really tough, much tougher than you guys right now can imagine. They were simply not of a strong enough character to make it here when the going got rough. ... The purpose of the program is to create champions, but more importantly it's to create a body of guys who can draw people to them BECAUSE they're champions, and at the same time live a life that sets a higher standard for living in a more correct way, so that others - their juniors, their students - will aspire to live better lives as well."

A tree of shallow roots falls easily to the ground with a slight tug.

About the strongest Karate thing. What you said about that is true aswell. I have the movies strongest Karate 1 and 2 and when I see them train the way they did. There was no complaining. They trained sometimes even to the point of exhaustion or to the point to when they would faint.

This is Budo Karate, spirit takes over flesh - "Mind over matter" going beyond human endurance. Possible? Yes, as exemplified by our Great Sosai Masutatsu Oyama.

Osu.

[Kyokushin555]

Well, I think thats how all training should be. If we train that way, it brings is past a physical point. To a point where only your spirit pushes you on. Doing continous repetition with someone pushing and yelling at you, not only disciplines you physically, but it also trains you mentaly. When I watch those types of trainings I think what has happened to Karate?

[Groucho]

Originally Posted by Kyokushin555

Well, I think thats how all training should be. If we train that way, it brings is past a physical point. To a point where only your spirit pushes you on. Doing continous repetition with someone pushing and yelling at you, not only disciplines you physically, but it also trains you mentaly. When I watch those types of trainings I think what has happened to Karate?

Osu,

I agree with you on this point, as I'm sure everyone on the board does. For us, people who have done budo karate, there is no other way ("once you go Budo, you never go back"...might look good on a t-shirt...). I would submit a slight change that we'd likely need no one to be yelling at us to push our limits, that the desire to do so comes from within. And that is likely why each of us found our home in the Kyokushin family of karate styles.

The question begs asking, though, are we a) of a unique personality type that craves this pursuit of self-perfection through ordeal, or b) ever so slightly nuts? (j/k)

My point is, have you ever tried to explain the why's and what's of what we do to someone? The cast majority of people just don't get it. I trained 5 years in Japan, and only 2 of my co-workers ever got it (and one of those was my sensei, so...).

Yet these people could get so much out of studying karate. Is it fair to block off everything Kyokushin could offer such people because they aren't tough enough to go the whole nine yards in their training? I don't think that looking down on them because of this lack of toughness is exactly in keeping with the spirit that Sosai tried to bring to us.

But by the same token, if they don't go the whole nine yards, I wouldn't consider what they trained in to be Kyokushin. Quite the contradiction, huh?