Question on head punches

[zenshin]

I was wondering do you guys find it difficult to strike to the head/face since you train not too? I read on a lot of comments from people always stating kyokushin fall back is not training to strike the head/face. I was just wondering on some of your opinions or experiences.

[blackdog]

Great question.

I have always wondered if that was a weakness.

Hey! Heres an idea, let me punch you in the face, it wont hurt because i dont do it all the time, right?

Sorry for the somewhat sarcastic sounding answer, i mean no disrespect to you personally.

A Policeman doesn't do target practice with real people. Does that mean his bullets won't kill a person if fired upon?

The army cant afford to always use live ammunition in its training drills. Does that mean its bombs wont blow up a building when a real one is dropped from a plane?

Ok, so we dont "practice" belting each other in the face in the dojo. This does not mean it wont hurt if i had to punch someone in the face for self defense.

You can condition your legs, arms and body. You can not condition your face, so whats the point of doing it in the dojo?

Again, my sarcastic sounding reply was not aimed at you personally zenshin. This topic comes up time and time again on forums as a "weakness" of Kyokushin, and i just think its really funny. Let a Karate-ka punch someone in the face and see if it is a "weakness"

Re your specific question "would you guys find it difficult to punch someone in the face?"

Personally, yes, I would. But not because i cant do it, because i dont think it is very good to punch people in the head, it's dangerous. You can kill someone.

Would i find it difficult?, yes. Would i / can i do it if i needed to defend myself?, in a heartbeat.

Bren

[zenshin]

No the sarcasm is fine, I don't mind it, but if you realize or at least from what others have pointed out to me is when you guys spar you tend to keep your hands low to block body shots and get in the habit of keeping your hands down, getting in the habit of keeping your hands down puts some people at risk and yes it bad to punch someone in the face, but if one gets in the habit of only doing body punches it becomes difficult to attack the face especially if our reflexes after years of training is to keep your hands low and to attack the body. That is why I ask this question after years of training only body shots is it hard to punch to the face?

[blackdog]

That is a very good and valid point.

I would suggest that what we practice blocking is "threats", so i would like to hope that when reflexes kick in they would be good enough to block a face punch every bit as quickly as a body hit.

I'm a big guy, slow with my hands & feet, and tend to fight too square on. One of the things my instructors have always drummed into me is to:

1. present a smaller target using angles

2. Dont close up my arms and pull them too close to my body, but instead get them away from myself a little bit - Doing this they say, (keep in mind im not a very good fighter ) gives me more time to react to what is being thrown at me & i dont have to move my hand as far to block. By keeping a little distance i can move only a few inches to the right of left to effectively block a punch.

So with that theory it is only a matter of moving my hands a few inches up & to the right or left to block a face punch

In theory i guess you are right, practice makes perfect. But i would like to think that the practice we do would allow us to react to blocking all sorts of threats from all sorts of angles.

my 2 cents

Bren

[BCook]

Can i just add that we train, quite regularly to kick to the head.... and its drummed into us that you had better keep your hands up or someone will take your head clean off..... im a small guy, but i'll get my foot up near your ear hole if i want to.... you'd wanna make sure your hands are there too

[Bloke]

Originally Posted by zenshin

I was wondering do you guys find it difficult to strike to the head/face since you train not too?

Interesting question zenshin but let me start by saying that this statement is wrong. The first punch I was ever taught in Kyokushin was Jodan Oi Tsuki. The common misconception here is that Kyokushin=Knockdown and that simply isnt true. Sosai called Kyokushin Budo Karate - knockdown is there to test our skills in a protected environment but that does not mean we dont work on other things also.

Originally Posted by zenshin

others have pointed out to me is when you guys spar you tend to keep your hands low to block body shots and get in the habit of keeping your hands down

This is also incorrect - it has been noted that a Knockdown fighters stance is not that dissimilar to a Thai boxers i.e hands up to cover the head (as bcook says because in knockdown we do work head kicks a lot.

Originally Posted by zenshin

That is why I ask this question after years of training only body shots is it hard to punch to the face?

This goes back to my original statement that its only in training for knockdown that we only do bodyshots. In WKF rules they make minimal or no contact - does that mean they cant when they need to?

I have worked in the dojo on head punches, elbows to the head, Headbutts, eye gouges, fishhooking - all not allowed in knockdown but all useable outside a competition scenario.

Can I punch someone in the face after 21 years of training? Yes

Would I? If the situation warrented it.

Zenshin I apologise if this seems like a rant aimed at you - its not. Its aimed at all those people who forget that Knockdown is only a small percentage of what we do - its the sproting side to what should be a budo art.

[Fabian]

i recently watched an Australian MMA event called Warriors Realm and was surprised to see the two kyokushin fighters get very early very clean knockouts with solid punches to the head/jaw of thier opponent. although thier gaurd was typically slightly lower than that of the other competitors.

osu.

[Shokei Marcsui]

Why is it "you guys"? If you practice kyokushin then it should be "we all" because we are all brothers from different mothers.

"You guys" implies exclusion of yourself from this topic.

That is why I ask this question after years of training only body shots is it hard to punch to the face?

You should be able to answer this question for yourself as a fellow kyokushin man... or as japman says:

ASK YOUR SENSEI

[seienchin]

Osu, interesting perspective with a different twist on the usual. I have actually made the transition for a couple of tournaments, and had absolutely no trouble puching to the face. It is such easy repertoire to add. I actually didn't do it much tho, becuase I had better head kicks than anyone else fighting, so I could just stay out of their punching range, andkick them in the head, instead of punching. BUt I had no trouble adjusting my punches up. YOu have to remember that in every other bit of our training except jiyu-kumite, we practice head punches. What I was crap at was bobbing and weaving to protect my own face, which is why I adopted the strategy that I did of staying outside and kicking. It always worked. I have won every tournament I have ever been in that allowed head punches. (semi and non-contact), and many of my winning strikes were head punches. (altho, I'm not vey good at non-contact- tend to give my opponents nose-bleeds). And I did this from a training base of kyokushin dojo that was definitely not training for anything other than traditional knockdown rules.

[Martin H]

the problem is not so much _punching_ to the head as it is _defending_ against punches to the head. Since we dont spend much time training the first except from pure kihon (which,as we all know, is not the same as sparring) we naturally lack skill in defense against sparring situation punch combinations thrown with intent to hit.
And when we are put in a situation where headpunches are allowed, we either forget to guard that area (dropping the guard as we, unfortunately, are famous for in kickboxing), or we do it at the expense of being wide open everywhere else.
And then ofcourse we get a whole other fight range, with lots on new combinations (and feints), that we have to take into account when sparring with headpunches.

The actual punching is not really much of a problem. The defense is.
A uncomfortable truth, but recognizing and accepting a problem is the first part of solving it.

[Lucy]

I dont find it difficult punching to the head. I did it twice accidentally in my last tournament

Seriously though i agree with MartinH we would have more trouble defending a head punch that executing one. I also agree with Bloke the first technique i was taught was a jodan oi tsuki. And Seienchin. When i first fought as a junior, non contact, we fought under WUKO rules. The year i won the Nationals i scored 2 punches and received two ippons along with a jodan mawashi, 3 ippons all over in 30 seconds! Chuffed. That along with my jodan mawashi were my best techniques. I had a bit of trouble adjusting to clicker because that doesnt allow face punches.

[A-jay]

I think the bigger question is wether we can adapt to someone who is used to head punches. So yes, like you all said head punches aren't hard when you fight another kyokushin practitioner, but what about thaiboxers?

Also blackdog I'm not sure if your analogy is correct.
I mean, a taekwondoka has powerful kicks but if he has never done a low kick before it won't be as effective as it could be.

[kakatootoshi]

Do I think "no face punch" is a weakness of Kyokushin?
Yes I think so, and to ignore this fact is not someone who loves Kyokushin should do. I just do not think we can say "Kyokushin is weak", ignoring the many strengths of this art.

Do I think Kyoushin people have troubles in punching into the face?
Yes I think so. I completely agree with Martin H that defense against face punches is the main problem, and I will add to that if you have troubles defending punches from someone who has seasoned boxing skills, then I do not see that you have chances to throw effectively punches. Shadowing boxing is one thing, exchanging face punches with a live opponent is another. And we should distinguish between "can punch" and "can punch well". Even a kid can punch someone in the face. Maybe most of you can sing and cook and get compliments from friends and family that you sing and cook well, but how many of you can really do it like the professionals? I have heard many Kyokushin people say that head punches is to just "punch a few inches higher" and I think this is a completely irresponsible thing to tell the students. Probably this work in non-contact, semi-contact or some self-defense situations where you do not really exchange face punches with your opponents, but if you have ever sparred in Muay Thai way, you will know that face punches (to be used in a ring) takes time to master, and even some of our great Sempais have problems with face punches in the K-1 ring when they first began!

OSU!

[hasbeen]

my thoughts exactly brad, anybody who doesn`t keep their hands up is going to "cop" one sooner or later, i saw a "russian" fight a guy at crystal palace last year who didn`t keep his hands up, i watched through my fingers until the "russian" knocked the guy unconcious[he had even wizzed a kick over his head a few seconds earlier and didn`t get the message] in my opinion keeping your hands up is a basic of knockdown?

[Bloke]

Hasbeen

I saw that fight and the guy was gonna get KOed the moment the fight started - it was a brutal knockout.

[Lucy]

Originally Posted by hasbeen

my thoughts exactly brad, anybody who doesn`t keep their hands up is going to "cop" one sooner or later, i saw a "russian" fight a guy at crystal palace last year who didn`t keep his hands up, i watched through my fingers until the "russian" knocked the guy unconcious[he had even wizzed a kick over his head a few seconds earlier and didn`t get the message] in my opinion keeping your hands up is a basic of knockdown?

I saw that too! It turned my stomach!!

[Sonik]

Zenshin, there are a lot of Kyokushin Karate practicioners who also practice Boxing, Kickboxing and Ju-jutsu/Judo. However i consider these martial arts as an integrant part of Kyokushin Karate (no kiddin') as it was in the beggining. Now, if you ask me if a Kyokushin Karateka who only trains for standard competition will feel comfortable with head punching or grappling i tell you he won't. I think this is obvious. Most cases i know of, fighters don't know how to dodge punches, they just block and close their eyes (wich is very bad). If the grappling techniques are added into this equation then things can get even worse.

Fortunately my Kyokushin Karate instructor is also into Boxing/Kickboxing and Judo and as such we've always had a more well rounded training. Currently we've been away from the IKO-1 (my instructor has been more dedicated to Boxing and K-1/Kickboxing) but i think we'll be returning this year.


Osu!

[zenshin]

Actually that was going to be my second question "defense", but you guys already covered it. I am just curious why don't the rules change in order to be more prepared? Or at least train some punch defense?

[KyoKrazyRussian]

You bring up an interesting point, and as someone else had said it's not so much of the problem to punch in the face, but get into the habit to defend yourself from a punch in the face, because of low guard.
IMO I think that it can cause some difficulties to a Kyokushin karateka, mainly because they get used to punching areas that are tournament based. Thats why I think it's essential for the Sensei to let his students know in a real life fight, you need to make use of vital points. There have been numerous occasions were blackbelts in many different types of MA's had been beaten up because they were so use to punching in areas that are tournament based, while the opponent focused more on hitting areas that hurt.
But in all honesty its not hard for karatekas to punch up high, knocking somebody out from the stomach is harder than knocking somebody out from the head. And when people in the tournaments do get knocked out from a stomach punch, it just goes to show they can also knock somebody out from a face punch. Osu!