Kyokushin Karate in the 21st Century...Better Technically, Weaker Spiritually?

[seienchin]

I think everyone posting is roughly on the same page here. The inner journey of karate (or other MA training) is achieved by focusing on the things that matter. Fancy costumes, promoters fees, publicity and popular appeal do not help the inner journey.

If kyokushin (or any other traditional style) gets seduced into thinking that those things are more important than the spirit of the style, then we have lost the plot. The descriptions Dent gives of individuals striving and improving are good examples of what matters.

As for improving - I hope so. As a species we can't afford to stagnate.

We have seen lots of posts about technical improvement - there seems to be consensus there. We have seen posts for and against teh "weaker spiritually" bit of it. I am interested to see if anyone thinks Kyokushin is STRONGER spiritually than it was 30 years ago? And if not, what do we need to do to achieve the same growth in that domain as we have achieved technically?

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by seienchin

Thisd is an interesting discussion. Call me old-fashioned, but I actually don't give a hoot whether I could win an MMA match or not. Competition fighting is not what Kyokushin is about. Sosai did not (as far as I am aware) go and fight Mohammed Ali just to prove who was better. Each did their own and excelled at it. But Kyokushin as a brand focused at least as much on spiritual growth and self-discipline as it did on fighting techniqe.
If all we do is try to out MMA the MMA guys, we will end up with lots of dojos full of young men, and maybe a few young women, getting aproduct that probably can be better sold elsewhere.
We have to remain true to the message that karate is at least as much or more about the inner journey as it is about the punching and kicking. It is only thorugh the perfection of the inner that the outer reaches the true potential. If we abandon this philosophy, we have lost the essence of kyokushin, and we short change our students.
I will hopefully never have to throw a punch or kick in a real situation. I also hope that for everyone who reads this. But every day of my life I draw on the inner skills, ethics, self belief and understanding of the human condition that my karate has given me. That is what Kyokushin can bring, and it is THAT which makes us the strongest karate.

Regular Kyokushin Karate students don't have to be worried about MMA matches but they do need to be worried whether or not they're capable of defending themselves properly in a real one-on-one street fight against a Boxer, a Kickboxer, a Grappler or a MMA expert.

However that's a only technical question regarding self defense skills.

I guess what Lone Wolf is pointing out is the alleged loss of true Budo spirit in favour of a marketability and profit approach to Kyokushin Karate.

We can deny the importance of MMA or K-1 competition but competition with other martial arts schools has always been a part of Kyokushin Karate since the beggining. Sosai wanted his Karate to be the strongest martial art and to prove so, he believed that his fighters should be tested against fighters with different fighting styles. However, as he also stated many times, more important than proving superior fighting skills, is a man's fighting spirit and honour.

Mike Tyson, a famous boxer we all know had great boxing skills and defeated most of his opponents with relative ease. However, when confronted with difficulties, he didn't act as a true champion should, not only in the ring, but in his personal life, and is now regarded by many as a loser and an idiot. This happened because his self defense was limited to physical skills. There was no development of the mind. A good martial arts instructor must encourage his students to perfect other aspects of their personal life(their relationship with their family, friends, teachers, bosses, colleagues or even employees) and expand their interests (arts, music, literature, politics, economy, social affairs etc.).

Hence the reason why Kyokushin Karate's self defense can't be limited to a matter of physical skills. It has to provide its students a phylosophical code than leads them to be the best as they can in everything they do in life, as opposed to just being a good ring or street fighter.

That's the way i see what Kyokushin Karate must be all about: a Karate style that provides not only effective fighting skills but also spiritual refinement. In the end it has to make us better people, more combative, more ambitious but also more humble and kind towards others.


Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Sonik

Regular Kyokushin Karate students don't have to be worried about MMA matches but they do need to be worried whether or not they're capable of defending themselves properly in a real one-on-one street fight against a Boxer, a Kickboxer, a Grappler or a MMA expert.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I do wonder whether we should be becoming involved in street fights at all? And I wonder about all the other fighters being out on the street looking for trouble too?

The more time I spent training, the less time I had to get into trouble. I also learned that most of the really dangerous fighters were training too. A lot of those who cause trouble on the street don't have the discipline required to become fighters, and they don't have the heart for more than an uneven brawl on the street.

Osu!

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

as i always say, it's the person, not the style that dictates the outcome of a fight. i am a karateka. i've fought as a boxer, kickboxer, and mma fighter but i'm still a karateka. now i've spent a life time as a combative athlete and to get ready for those different activities, i trained specifically for them. i enjoy all combat sports. i do not feel that one has to train in a multitude of martial arts to learn to defend oneself. anyone can practice karate but not everyone can box, kickbox etc. those are combat sports for combat athletes. marketers of these sports have made people think that karate (or other arts) are inferior. i have students who fight mma, but don't want to fight bare knuckle just like there are some guys who do karate who don't want to fight mma. they think the other is too hard for them or just not their thing. it is an individual choice to train or compete in a style or several styles. i was a good soccer player in my youth, but to this day i'm still a terrible basketball player (even though i try hard). i do feel that whatever style you practice, you better learn to defend yourself. i don't do martial arts just for fighting, but nor do i do it just for philosophical or spiritual reasons either (or i'd just do yoga and meditate). karate is something we do to satisfy all those needs. all of my fighters are certified black belts first and athletes second. if one can attain a good level of karate from me, i know they can apply the discipline and focus of karate to their combat sport. so, no matter what they are doing, it's still karate in philosophy.

[meguro]

Everybody is guilty of a little wistfulness when they recall the past. My parent's generation did it and now that I'm a parent so do I. What's different now, really different, is that we will all share a collective memory, where the good stuff as well as the bad stuff will be faithfully recorded. Thanks to YouTube, all comparisons between present and past will be readily accessible. Besides YouTube, there are forums like this one, so I expect that Kyokushin Karate will get better as ideas and experiences are broadcast widely.

I'm suspicious of the "weaker spiritually" charge. It seems that older generations always pull that card. Every generation rises to whatever challenges it has to, and with that cultivate the necessary spirit to survive so that it can tell the succeeding generation to buck-up.

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



While I agree with the rest of your post, I do wonder whether we should be becoming involved in street fights at all? And I wonder about all the other fighters being out on the street looking for trouble too?

The more time I spent training, the less time I had to get into trouble. I also learned that most of the really dangerous fighters were training too. A lot of those who cause trouble on the street don't have the discipline required to become fighters, and they don't have the heart for more than an uneven brawl on the street.

Osu!

Of course it's always best if you don't get involved in street fights with some low life punks. However just because we tend to avoid them doesn't mean we'll never have to deal with them. It may happen. At least i already had to in some occasions (very few though and never because of me but mostly because of my girlfriend and some friends of mine).

Where i live there are Boxers, Kickboxers, Ju-jutsuka and even MMA rookies whith a a strong reputation of troublemakers. Some of them are even drug dealers while others are nothing but lowlife neo nazis. And i consider my city (Lisbon) to be one of the safest in Europe although violent criminality has been increasing. However if you go to Marseille or Paris in France things are even worse. Not to mention cities in South America countries such as Rio de Janeiro or São Paulo in Brasil (two of the most violent in the world).

So the question is: Does Kyokushin Karate provide you the physical and mental skills to overcome such situation?


Hence i consider that Kyokushin Karate's main goal is to develop our physical self defense skills for violent situations as that is what martial arts were first created to. We don't enter a dojo to learn philosophy (ie, mental self defense skills) only. We do it first in order to learn how should we physically react in case we're in a life threatning situation. That is one of the main conditions of any form of Bu-jutsu. Without an answer to that, you don't have a true martial but only a shadow of it, that is to say a fighting sport for instance.

So sport fighting competition is to me nothing but a secondary goal because it leads you into sports mentality. It's a rough sport that may require a storng fighting sprit but it's still nevertheless a sport, with many rules by the way.
At the same time though, and this we need to have in mind, sports competition has gained an increasing importance in martial arts. A lot of schools find it to be a key factor in order to atracct more students, and as a result of that, making more money. K-1 and MMA competition is an example of what i'm saying and the fact is Kyokushin Karate has left a mark in these fighting sports where money and advertising are involved.

I don't see any problem in having Kyokushin fighters participating in such events, but i guess some of critics directed towards Kansho Matsui result from this new reality.

So the next big question is: is Kyokushin Karate becoming a sports orientated fighting style or is it still a true Budo martial art? Or can it be both at the same time providing a solution for students with diferent interests and perspectives?

I guess the answer depends on the students, the instructors and the general policy adopted by Kansho Matsui and his successors.

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

as i always say, it's the person, not the style that dictates the outcome of a fight. i am a karateka. i've fought as a boxer, kickboxer, and mma fighter but i'm still a karateka. now i've spent a life time as a combative athlete and to get ready for those different activities, i trained specifically for them. i enjoy all combat sports. i do not feel that one has to train in a multitude of martial arts to learn to defend oneself. anyone can practice karate but not everyone can box, kickbox etc. those are combat sports for combat athletes. marketers of these sports have made people think that karate (or other arts) are inferior. i have students who fight mma, but don't want to fight bare knuckle just like there are some guys who do karate who don't want to fight mma. they think the other is too hard for them or just not their thing. it is an individual choice to train or compete in a style or several styles. i was a good soccer player in my youth, but to this day i'm still a terrible basketball player (even though i try hard). i do feel that whatever style you practice, you better learn to defend yourself. i don't do martial arts just for fighting, but nor do i do it just for philosophical or spiritual reasons either (or i'd just do yoga and meditate). karate is something we do to satisfy all those needs. all of my fighters are certified black belts first and athletes second. if one can attain a good level of karate from me, i know they can apply the discipline and focus of karate to their combat sport. so, no matter what they are doing, it's still karate in philosophy.

You have good spirit. I subscribe all you said.


Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

I grew up in a violent country, where guns are easily accessable. Honestly, to go to the Dojo for training when getting a gun is only a few minutes work doesn't make much sense. Unless the goal is more than just being able to shoot someone.

As someone who was small, weak, skinny and sickly, Karate gave me the tools to stand straight, walk tall, and have some confidence in my skills. These things probably got me out of more potential problems than my fists did.

I do believe that all aspects of hand to hand combat should be covered if at all possible. At least so that members can realize how fragile and how strong they are.

Osu!

[Spirit]

Well that may be true Lonewolf,
but where did the change from spirit to sport come from in the first place.
Oyama himself may have directly caused the change... The budo aspects that he once stressed directly conflict with the sport side he also created!?!

So I guess if we really look at Kyokushin as a whole and then take in account the men who removed themselves from it, [and worked to start it again under a new leadership and style name] knew something we did not and STILL do not.

For it to grow outside one culture the style needed to take on a different aspects to grow. As a non Japanese I do not know of or follow Shinto or other eastern religious ways, as well not follow or was brought up with Budo, Bushido, Confucius, or Buddhist undertones in the home, school, work, University, and every day living.

The style would have to change do to cultural differences to expand.
Oyama was a man of great visionary during his time in Karate, that history is already written and can't be changed.

So quite possible it was multi-faceted issues that Oyama dealt with, caused change to and he implemented that caused it in the first place. For some reason we tend to place Oyama in a place of making no errors or doing no wrong, which can be an error on our part.

He was no less of making an error or incorrect decision than you or I. I'm not saying he was not great Karateka that he was, I'm saying he was a man as you and I and equal to you and I...
He was a smoker and drinker, he was a man with 2 families, he was known to associate with criminal figures...the fairness of the world tourney's was well known to favorer the Japanese fighters only, one could go on.

But why, does it change the fact that Kyokushin was the idea and the vision [of the early years] of Oyama and his inner circle of yudansha. NO it does not.

The difference between say 1 million or so people outside the eastern rim training in Karate in the 50's or 60's to over 12-14 Million just in the U.S. today. Many differences are going to effect Karate be them hard or soft.
No style is like what it once was in the early days of its development.
Just look how different the generations of yudansha think about Kyokushin on the forum alone.

Look at what has happened to BJJ since it became mainstream the last few years. Everyone is teaching it, everyone is certified in it. One can take a weekend class/seminar to become a instructor in it........

This to happened to Kyokushin in the teen years [one could call it]. Some yudansha thought it was good and worked to expand it and validate it and some thought it to be bad and moved on and talked bad or voiced their opinions about it.
I can't say what Oyama thought, we can only "assume" what he thought from the actions of the Honbu and not take to heart what he said or what was writen...

I think it is best for Kyokushin that each of us do the Best Job Teaching it as we can. Take every opportunity to learn more from ALL who do and once did train in Kyokushin to expand our knowledge in it, be flexible in our thinking, and to pass on the knowledge of Kyokushin to each student with dignity and Don't hold it back or think we should not share it with someone from a different dojo or IKO.

If this generation [baby boomer's] of Sensei's are going to bring back the glory days of Kyokushin, we need to stop fighting, arguing on or about rank, kata, and everything else and work to and focus on our own dojo and students and at the same time be open to interpretation of others within Kyokushin.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Spirit

If this generation of Sensei's are going to bring back the glory days of Kyokushin, we need to stop fighting, arguing on or about rank, kata, and everything else and work to and focus on our own dojo and students and at the same time be open to interpretation of others within Kyokushin.

Well said, Spirit! I think we need to do two things. Push ourselves a little harder, and be a lot more forgiving/ understanding of others!

Osu!

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



I think we need to do two things. Push ourselves a little harder, and be a lot more forgiving/ understanding of others!

Osu!

And that, I think, could be a motto for life.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by seienchin

And that, I think, could be a motto for life.

What do you say, Seienchin, T-shirt motto, or tattoo motto?

Osu!

[MilkManX]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



What do you say, Seienchin, T-shirt motto, or tattoo motto?

Osu!

Car Bumper Sticker?

In all seriousness though. Yes train hard,push ourselves hard and persevere.

[Lonewolf]

Osu! Man, am I glad I started this thread. Some really great opinions and insights shared here. Sonik really gets what I mean when he says what I'm saying is the direction Kyokushin has now taken is more towards the marketing aspects and away from the Spiritual aspects. I think that is what Soshu Shigeru Oyama meant in that interview when he said the Kyokushin of old was alot stronger spiritually than today.
Sosai Mas Oyama had a very good student named Mr. Akio Fijihira. Fujihira is one of my original Sempai and he was the direct Kohai to my Sensei, Kenji Kurosaki. Fujihira was not a big man, rather small even for Japanese standards, but he trained twice or three times as hard as all the other students. His nickname was the "Little Oyama" because of his strong spirit and willingness to train so hard. While Fujihira was still training under Sosai Oyama, he was also a Professional Japanese Kickboxer at the same time. His ring name in Kickboxing was Noboru Osawa and he became Japan's first Bamtamweight Kickboxing Champion. He was also one of the 3 Kyokushin students who went to fight Thai champions in Thailand in 1964. Fujihira won his match by a K.O. from his punching techniques.
My point in mentioning Fujihira to that even though he was training & fighting in Japanese Kickboxing, he never lost his perspective as a Kyokushin Karate-ka and he fought with Mas Oyama's blessing. I'm sure the strong spirit he cultivated in Kyokushin Karate carried over into his Kickboxing career. Emphasis has now changed. Nowadays, a fighter is mostly concerned with the technical or physical aspects and loses sight of the big picture in the long run. I really think that was what Sosai Oyama meant when he said that the "professional side of Karate destroys Karate" or something to that effect. The spirit of challenge against other Karate & fighting styles has always been important in Kyokushin. I think it even helps in the development of the style, keeping it practical and combat effective. But, trainees should never lose sight of the spiritual aspects.
My old Sensei once said, "I place my priority on the Spiritual side always", and he had the most sucessful Kickboxing Dojo in Japanese history. I hope Kyokushin can be preserved for future generations to upgrade the quality of student's lives. It is really up to the individual Instructors and whats important to them. Osu!

[Humayun]

I totally agree with LONEWOLF.....that nowadays Kyukushin is not practised with that spirit that prevailed in 70's...but i think now the time has changed..people have to do alot of tasks today besides practice. nowadays we face a lot of problems and matters which prevents us from practice.as we know that every martial art requires time, but no one has got time now bcoz of many many reasons

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

i still fail to see what spirit prevailed in the past that doesn't exist now. many of the off shoot styles came about because of issues during that time. kyokushin karate's perception and reality are 2 different things. what exactly is this "spirit" that was lost? i say that because i don't think karate of the 1970's were anymore spirited than those of today. the style was marketed as being a supreme fighting style. there were many dojo rivalries and challenges that took place. kyokushin offended a lot of karateka just like bruce lee did to mainstream kung fu.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Humayun

I totally agree with LONEWOLF...

Humayun, please visit our Introductions section, and tell us a little about yourself, so we can welcome you properly.

Osu!