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07-09-2008, 07:25 PM
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#1
Kyokushin Karate in the 21st Century...Better Technically, Weaker Spiritually?
Osu! Recently, I ran across and old magazine about "martial arts masters" that had an exclusive interview of Soshu Shigeru Oyama included. Soshu spoke about his relationship to Sosai Oyama and Kyokushin, it was extremely interesting to me. One of the questions he was asked, "How do you compare the Kyokushin of today with the Kyokushin of the 1970's"? Soshu's answer was that the Kyokushin of old had much stronger spirit, although the style today has progressed technically. That answer really got me thinking about Kyokushin in the 21st century. It seems alot of people no longer have the respect and awe they once had for this magnificient style. Alot of focus nowadays seems to be on the sporting and business aspects more than the Budo principles that Sosai Oyama so greatly stressed. This really concerns me for the future of the Kyokushin style.
Once the true essence of something as complex as a Budo form is lost, it is forever gone. A very sad situation. I think it is up to the leaders in this and the next generation to keep the standards high so that Kyokushin can once again be appreciated and respected as "The Strongest Karate", a true martial art. I also read on the KyokushinKan website that Kancho Royama feels the same way about things. He mentioned that during Sosai Oyama's time, everyone in Japan knew without a doubt that Kyokushin was the strongest style. But, nowadays people don't think or feel that way anymore. I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on this situation. I, for one still believe and have faith in this wonderful style and all that it has to offer. Osu! 
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07-09-2008, 08:07 PM
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#2
I agree. I am not advocating that we should all go back to the days when people train in mountains and waterfalls, but in recent years the overflow of information about Kyokushin on the internet and other media is not totally positive to the development of Kyokushin. In another thread it has been pointed out that online videos will help to deter abusive instructors. But many beginners will take the little, scattered information that get outside the Dojo as "power of knowledge" and challenge the people inside. Because these people mistakenly think they know something, they have that attitude to be always unnecessarily skeptical. This extra information will definitely forever change the Dojo structure and people's idea about Kyokushin.
OSU!
__________________
The things that an average person need to defeat a genius are training, energy, spirit of inquiry and an obsession for victory. The best lubricant in interpersonal relationships is humor. Oyama Masutatsu Sosai
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07-09-2008, 11:15 PM
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#3
I think some of the awe for Kyokushin has been lost with the advent and spread of MMA. Any style that does not focus on a balanced approach in all fighting ranges is seen as deficient. I love Kyokushin, but I must supplement my training with boxing and grappling because the way it is taught in the US does not approach these ranges consistently or in a balanced way. In Sosai's day, all (or that vast majority) of Kyokushin practitioners had judo experience, and hand strikes to the face were a regular part of training. Today, I don't see nearly any time spent on real grappling (only limited self defense maneuvers) and hand strikes to the face are worked in sparingly, not anywhere near the amount of time spent on typical knock down style sparring.
I think if you had to honestly ask what is the strongest karate today, Kyokushin would not be it, though Shihan Royama's Kyokushinkan organization seems to be added back the hand to head strkes, clinching, and throws that were long ago a regular part of Kyokushin. Kudo/Daido Juku seems a more complete, balanced fighting style. I hope the IKO organizations reintroduce those elements of striking and grappling that were once there, and that Kyokushin regains it place at the top of the karate world as a fighting art. This will only enhance its Budo spirit.
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07-09-2008, 11:39 PM
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#4
I agree with lonewolf.
Kyokushin became big with hard rigorous training, with total obidience and devotion to the way, but now whe have cable tv, the mcdonalds-generation, gaming-consoles and kids so bussy with 5 or 6 different "hobby`s" beside`s school they can hardly keep their eyes open... In the previous dojo i taught some kids would show up with music instruments or i would hear mum`s hurry their kids after class because they had to go to baseball training straight after karate class or some would show up late because their soccer coach made them do penalty laps after training.... Imho thats not going to work.... But i also think we let it go there... Lets put lonewolf`s words in the light of what we discussed here: http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums...-students.html I believe that without offering the hardships we felt while training to our students we are letting the point that lonewolf is trying to make slip away.... kyokushin isnt soccer or checkers... its kyokushin... its licking your wounds when you get home... its remembering why that lump on your shin is still there after 10 years... its remembering how the blackspots in your vision came up after a 10 hour grading and not remembering how you got in your bed after....
__________________
The longer you train in karate, the more you learn about yourself.
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07-10-2008, 05:17 AM
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#5
Osu! I appreciate everyone's input here on this matter. I am only advocating that maybe Kyokushin needs reexamination of it's inherent Budo aspects ansd influence. Budo is so very much a part of traditional Japanese culture, and should not be changed or adapted too much. This is because it can easily lose it's essence and purpose. Too many Instructors are adapting training to suit the needs and fancies of the students these days. I think the student's have to adapt to the rigors and demands of the training, not the other way around.
It is really every instructor's responsibility to keep the standards high without compromising the principles of Budo Karate. If more Instructors don't realize this, Kyokushin will just one day fade away and just be a memory. Budo training is strict, formal training, right down to Kyudo (Japanese Archery). The underlining spirit never changes or becomes outdated. It is the Instructors who change things. Sosai Oyama once said "All Karate systems have to be of a true combat nature or they don't deserve to call themselves Karate". I totally agree with that statement. Nobody respects Karate at all anymore. When Sosai was alive, even the Yakuza had respect for Kyokushin. When I was living in Japan in the 1960's, I once heard someone say "Kyokushin Karate would have made the Samurai proud". That is a high compliment to bestow on a modern martial art. You sure don't hear noble talk like that anymore. Very sad. Osu!
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07-10-2008, 09:11 AM
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#6
Honestly, I really didn't notice this until I discovered Kyokushin discussion on the internet and it's exposure by the MMA community.
It's not fair to blame MMA for removing the "spirituality" from Kyokushin BUT instead of practitioners joining Kyokushin to enhance their knowledge of Budo, practitioners are learning Kyokushin to enhance their skill in MMA which only focusses on technique for competition. In reality Kyokushin is much more than technique but this is not exposed to the MMA audience. Quote:
__________________
Senzuikyo ~ Ekkinkyo
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07-10-2008, 10:32 AM
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#7
Thisd is an interesting discussion. Call me old-fashioned, but I actually don't give a hoot whether I could win an MMA match or not. Competition fighting is not what Kyokushin is about. Sosai did not (as far as I am aware) go and fight Mohammed Ali just to prove who was better. Each did their own and excelled at it. But Kyokushin as a brand focused at least as much on spiritual growth and self-discipline as it did on fighting techniqe.
If all we do is try to out MMA the MMA guys, we will end up with lots of dojos full of young men, and maybe a few young women, getting aproduct that probably can be better sold elsewhere. We have to remain true to the message that karate is at least as much or more about the inner journey as it is about the punching and kicking. It is only thorugh the perfection of the inner that the outer reaches the true potential. If we abandon this philosophy, we have lost the essence of kyokushin, and we short change our students. I will hopefully never have to throw a punch or kick in a real situation. I also hope that for everyone who reads this. But every day of my life I draw on the inner skills, ethics, self belief and understanding of the human condition that my karate has given me. That is what Kyokushin can bring, and it is THAT which makes us the strongest karate. 
__________________
Wisdom prevents mistakes. But you have to make mistakes to get the wisdom. 
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07-10-2008, 11:12 AM
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#8
i think it is a bold statement to say that kyokushin is or was the strongest karate or style. it is bold for any martial art to say that. for one to think that the martial artist of a few decades ago had more budo spirit, is inaccurate too. as with all things, when something is new, it is popular (at that pretty much depends on location). i don't think karate is competing with mma, or any other style either. the problem in the martial arts arts has always been disunity. so, that would be my response to the so called spirit that is supposedly lost.
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07-10-2008, 01:26 PM
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#9
Osu! Seienchin really seems to understand the point I was trying to make. I was not directly criticising instructors per se, just pointing out the direction Kyokushin Karate seems to be headed in. There is so much more to Karate than the fighting or competition aspects. If a student is only concerned with the sporting aspect of his/her training, they will never perfect the "upper level" techniques, the secret mysteries of Budo. Kyokushin Karate is a total martial arts journey, with roots that go back to the very origins of the martial arts principles. That is why Sosai always advocated that his Karate had so much more to offer training students.
Another problem these days is that too many Instructors have broken all ties and connection to Japan, the birthplace of Budo Karate. It is a shame that politics and other situations have deprived students of the chance to experience Karate in it's mother country. Also, many of the top Kyokushin masters are no longer in Japan, but living abroad. When Kyokushin was one, alot of students dreamed of going to Japan to do training there. Alot of them went there and was disappointed because the great Shihans were no longer there. Again, they missed the point. Japan is the spiritual home of Karate, the very culture itself should be experienced, not just the technical aspects of the training. An example from religion: All Muslims dream of making a pilgrimage to the Holy city of Mecca one day before they die. They know Muhammad the great prophet is no longer alive, but they still want to go and visit this holy place anyway. That is what I mean by all Kyokushin Karateka should visit Japan at least once and experience the culture and people there. I truly hope Kyokushin Karate will go forward to the next generation and remain a "Budo Karate". It has so much to offer the misguided and troubled youth of today. It is absolutely essential that Kyokushin remain disciplined and strict. This is totally up to the individual Instructors and their preferences. Osu!
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07-10-2008, 01:59 PM
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#10
Osu!
I think that it is a bit of a quandary/paradox in that kyokushin did become so popular because of the knockdown side of things and the publicity that all attracted. So, to attract new students the competition side of things need to be stressed and kyokushin shown to be 'effective'. But this is just one facet of the whole and the sport side should never be allowed to take over. If that happens then we will have lost the essence, that is obvious. 
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07-13-2008, 05:32 PM
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#11
I believe that it's down to each and every individuals to preserve the spirit of Kyokushin inspite the media and wave of fashion. Many people come and go but if a handful of them grasp the essence and teach it on, the Kyokushin spirit will be alive regardless. Maybe I'm just an optimistic when it comes to this but fashion has changed often and the core of MAs has not always been altered by it.
__________________
'Stop, shake, shutter!' - Jeff Nash
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07-18-2008, 06:22 PM
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#12
I agree with you. But everyone must agree that nowadays kyokushin don't have a strong master who is able to accept all challenges and prove the superiority of this karate. When sosai oyama was alive it was different he was the strongest man and everyone respected him and his karate.
__________________
ICHIGEKIIIII osu!
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07-18-2008, 06:52 PM
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#13
Osu!
Quote:
Sosai needed to demonstrate Kyokushin to everyone so that they could see and understand what it was. There are now many who continue on his message. Osu!
__________________
Train hard, train often! Look. Listen. Sweat!
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07-18-2008, 07:01 PM
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#14
Quote:
What I'm beginning NOT to understand is this whole deal of preserving Kyokushin Karate. What is meant by it? I guess it may be because it's before my time.. What exactly went on in the 70's, that people say are being lost today? I was under the impression that people of every Generation who were attracted to Kyokushin, were attracted to it because, the Kumite and training we do, IS the spirit of Kyokushin. Last edited by Dent; 07-18-2008 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Language
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07-18-2008, 07:04 PM
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#15
Osu!
Quote:
Given that I wrote back to Ziyaad concerning this thread, I figure I should share my opinion. IMO, Kyokushin has grown. Where before it was almost exclusively the province of hard young men, we now have large childrens groups; many more women; older men; and even members with a variety of various physical handicaps who can participate in this Budo. Technically better? Well, there do seem to be a great variety of techniques on display at tournaments, but the majority of the syllabus is exactly what it was circa 1970. Spiritually weaker? Sorry, while I know that there are fewer who will put up with being mistreated, I've also seen the effort of a 74 year-old man pushing himself through hard Kihon, and even mixing it up in Kumite. I've seen smaller fighters take on men almost twice their weight, and more than a foot taller. I've seen kids go to a full day of school, after school activities, training, studying, and be up to do the same thing the next day. And I've just watched our own female members on YouTube doing the kind of Kumite that was considered to barbaric for women to participate in... IMO, it's easy to see the negative, or run down the present in favor of the past, but that'll get us nowhere good. I see a tremendous future in the very real spirit training that is going on in Dojo worldwide, and I'm grateful to the past that got us here. Osu!
__________________
Train hard, train often! Look. Listen. Sweat!
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07-18-2008, 07:50 PM
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#16
Quote:
__________________
Blackmail's such an ugly word. I prefer extortion -- the "x" makes it sound cool.
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07-18-2008, 08:52 PM
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#17
I think it really depends on your Sensei for the right Budo effect.
That can make it either just exercise for fitness and self defense or that plus the spirit of Budo. If you are seeking Budo and arent getting it at your school then maybe you should find another one.
__________________
Its not about how hard you can hit,its about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward.
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07-18-2008, 08:53 PM
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#18
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