Kids Black Belts.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by tmd

I think some drop out rate from an increase in standards would help improve the art as a whole and get those who stayed the course to better respect thier own achivements. I also think it's more apropriate to hold you back from a grading if I feel your not ready rather than let you waste your time and money on something you'd fail.

To my mind it is all about educating them into a sense that the belt is secondary, the progress as a martial artist is what is important and that is about your physical abilities and your mental atitude, this can probably only be done from day 1.

I'm all for high standards. I also believe that we'd all be better off with a sense that training is its own success. Heck, just walking out the front door and going to class should rate some recognition. From the individual.

If we spend all the time looking for some mythical martial destination, I'm sure we're missing 90% of the point. Where is the grasping of the moment if I'm thinking about my next grade? And if the concept of living in the present is tough for an adult mind, how much can we expect from children?

Osu!

[ksan]

Originally Posted by Dent

If we spend all the time looking for some mythical martial destination, I'm sure we're missing 90% of the point. Where is the grasping of the moment if I'm thinking about my next grade? And if the concept of living in the present is tough for an adult mind, how much can we expect from children?

Osu!

I dont want to go all filosophical, but its the road taken that is important, not the destination... this should be, imho, made clear to students from day one...

[ANTSAN]

Shouldnt we look at the bigger picture, ie. being the best one can be, pushing yourself 110% everytime instead of simply aiming for the expected standard of ones next kyu / grade.
The point im trying to make is, wearing white belt one day, and then an orange the next doesn't make you any better than the previous day, the only difference is the colour of belt, nothing else so why try to rush through the system to black? Take your time, try to perfect and understand every technique surely thats more important than a peice of cloth around the waist. If there were no belts between white and black I would seriously have to question how many children would still be wearing one, in adittion to this, where is the value of wearing a black belt when you can't honestly say you live up to what it represents anyway? - perhaps all this isnt necessarily specific to kids wearing them... hopefully I haven't offended anyone here.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu! AntSan,

I see what you're saying, but can we really expect kids to grasp such a deep concept?

I think that's part of the reason why there is some question as to what age kids should be to be graded to black belt.

Osu!

[ANTSAN]

A potential alternative would be to grade them with a junior black belt like the old system where each coloured belt had a white stripe running along it which indicated a junior grade.
After reaching adult status (18/21) perhaps the student should re-grade for black belt as per the senior structure so that the belt grade represents the same status.

[Nix]

Originally Posted by Dent

I heard this week that one organization held an international grading recently, and about 60% of the candidates passed. Should it have been more, or less? Was 60% ok because of the standard of the group, or was there a greater issue internationally?

With an exception to last grading, I think 60% is about how many passes in our organization when it comes to the higher grades (brown/black belt). In addition to the many who are denied attending grading. In my opinion, this is not because the students are poorly trained, but because it's hard to pass, as it should be. It keeps the standard high.

Originally Posted by tmd

If the tests were harder, if you didn't think they desplayed the right character for the next grade and didn't let them grade automatically based on attendence would this make them weaker or stronger?

Individuals might be weaker, but overall the group will become stronger when you set the standards high. When it comes to higher junior grades (I'm thinking around green belt and up) the instructor should expect more from his students. Those who are not good enough, simply should not grade. If that takes the motivation out of them, and if that make some of them quit, then so be it. Ideally the instructor should try to motivate the students differently, and tell them that gradings are a secondary product to their progress. It's hard to turn a child down over and over, but it is for the best.

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Nix

With an exception to last grading, I think 60% is about how many passes in our organization when it comes to the higher grades (brown/black belt). In addition to the many who are denied attending grading. In my opinion, this is not because the students are poorly trained, but because it's hard to pass, as it should be. It keeps the standard high.

Individuals might be weaker, but overall the group will become stronger when you set the standards high. When it comes to higher junior grades (I'm thinking around green belt and up) the instructor should expect more from his students. Those who are not good enough, simply should not grade. If that takes the motivation out of them, and if that make some of them quit, then so be it. Ideally the instructor should try to motivate the students differently, and tell them that gradings are a secondary product to their progress. It's hard to turn a child down over and over, but it is for the best.

Nix, as I could not agree with this more I have a question for you which you ca refrain from answering if it's too personal; you are part of a large and successfull dojo if I have understood your posts correctly how many do you find yourselves holding back and what is the drop out rate?

[Olrac]

Originally Posted by Nix

If that takes the motivation out of them, and if that make some of them quit, then so be it.

This sounds great, but it won't work for every dojo.
For our dojo, it will work because our sensei is not a fulltime teacher. But if your salary depends on the number of students one has in his/her dojo, I can imagine that a teacher is a bit more carefull with his/her students.

[Nix]

Originally Posted by tmd

Nix, as I could not agree with this more I have a question for you which you ca refrain from answering if it's too personal; you are part of a large and successfull dojo if I have understood your posts correctly how many do you find yourselves holding back and what is the drop out rate?

tmd,

Our highest graded senior class (4th kyu and up) is relativelly small, with only 8 or so active students. I don't think any of us feel they are held back, quite on the contrary. There is a general consensus that the gradings are supposed to be hard, and that the students should work hard to achieve their new rank. When the challenge is greater, the fruit of the labour is sweeter. In fact many of us have openly expressed disappointment and frustration towards changes in the curriculum, that would seemingly make things easier.

I myself have tried for 2nd kyu and failed, others have been denied grading altogether. Yes, it is disappointing, but we choose high standards over worthless pieces of cotton.

I'm not sure what to answer to the drop-out rate. One student quit last year when he was denied grading. A few others have quit after beeing promoted to 4th kyu, some of which admitted that they were not ready to meet the expectations that comes with practicing in the "black-belt class". All in all, I'd say the drop-out rate is roughly 30%, but people (also) quit for other reasons than beeing "held back", such as moving away, growing old, injuries, family, job etc..

I hope that answers your questions.

Osu!

[Nix]

Originally Posted by Olrac

This sounds great, but it won't work for every dojo.
For our dojo, it will work because our sensei is not a fulltime teacher. But if your salary depends on the number of students one has in his/her dojo, I can imagine that a teacher is a bit more carefull with his/her students.

You are right. This is only my personaly opinion, but I really don't want to see students gain a rank they don't deserve. Our dojo receives 50 new children every 6 months. While every child students = profit, I personally think we can afford to lose some and focus on those who might become really good. Maybe not when they are red or blue belt, but when they gain a relativelly high rank, I have nothing against knocking it up a notch and get serious.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Nix

With an exception to last grading, I think 60% is about how many passes in our organization when it comes to the higher grades (brown/black belt). In addition to the many who are denied attending grading. In my opinion, this is not because the students are poorly trained, but because it's hard to pass, as it should be. It keeps the standard high.

Individuals might be weaker, but overall the group will become stronger when you set the standards high. When it comes to higher junior grades (I'm thinking around green belt and up) the instructor should expect more from his students. Those who are not good enough, simply should not grade. If that takes the motivation out of them, and if that make some of them quit, then so be it. Ideally the instructor should try to motivate the students differently, and tell them that gradings are a secondary product to their progress. It's hard to turn a child down over and over, but it is for the best.

I like your Dojo's attitude, Nix. Regarding kids, I increasingly wonder whether the Mon system wouldn't help them get over the hump of changing bodies and schedules beyond their control.

Osu!

[ksan]

Originally Posted by Nix

You are right. This is only my personaly opinion, but I really don't want to see students gain a rank they don't deserve. Our dojo receives 50 new children every 6 months. While every child students = profit, I personally think we can afford to lose some and focus on those who might become really good. Maybe not when they are red or blue belt, but when they gain a relativelly high rank, I have nothing against knocking it up a notch and get serious.

I agree with you, accept for one thing in your post. I dont think you should make a point out of only wanting to teach the gifted kids... i hope you also make an efford for the less gifted who really show the desire to learn (even though they have more difficulty and progress slower)

Osu

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Nix

W I personally think we can afford to lose some and focus on those who might become really good.

It's tough to know who will fulfill their promise. From when I started, I don't know of any of the kids who started with me who still train. Or from the next Dojo, or the next.

And if I had to look for the weakest, most unhealthy, and least talented individual in that class, the mirror would have been the best place to start. Even now, I regularly meet people with barrels of potential to spare, but who seem unable to stay the course.

Osu!

[Nix]

Originally Posted by ksan

I agree with you, accept for one thing in your post. I dont think you should make a point out of only wanting to teach the gifted kids... i hope you also make an efford for the less gifted who really show the desire to learn (even though they have more difficulty and progress slower)

Osu

Maybe I should clarify. I don't teach the gifted kids only. There are students in my class (5th kyu and above) who are not very good. Too many for my liking, in fact. My goal is an ambitious one, I want to increase the standard remarkably. This is the highest ranked junior class, and I want them to be "la crème de la crème". The only way possible way to do this that I can see, is to push them harder and teach more advanced things. Losing some of the less talented students is a sacrifice I am willing to take, when the alternative is losing some of the gifted ones because they are not challenged. I also deny grading for those I feel need more time to practice for the next grade.

The mon-system might be an idea, but I think what happens when they are finally promoted to seniors are more important. Will the rank be transferred? Will they start over? Will they need to pass a grading to keep their rank?

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Nix

The mon-system might be an idea, but I think what happens when they are finally promoted to seniors are more important. Will the rank be transferred? Will they start over? Will they need to pass a grading to keep their rank?

I think a regrade should be mandatory. Also a very good way to remind them that they aren't the big fish anymore.

Osu!

[Olrac]

I can't stop wondering, when is a student "a gifted one"? When he/she is an expert in kumite, kata? Or both?
What happens if someone is a very good fighter but poor at kata's?
I know gradings are all about technique's and knowledge.
Sure, you'll have to fight your fights but the main part of the grading will be the technical part.
Some of our students are not very "gifted". They are still low graded students. They come to the dojo, never miss class and really give 100% (their 100%). Should they be stuck at red/blue level for ever? Or does their effort count too? How do you keep these kids motivated and, at the same time, keep the standards high? This is not an easy task, in my opinion.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Olrac

I can't stop wondering, when is a student "a gifted one"?

If you ever get the right answer to this, Olrac, you'll be rich! The Dojo is a funny place, and it may take many years to find even a few exceptional members who have the whole package. I wonder how many systems have died out because the last in line was looking for that perfect student?

Personally, I feel that effort is King, and I'd rather have someone who tried their best, than one who could pass due only to their gifts, and not their work.

Ideally, we will recognize both, and promote that attitude among all our members.

Osu!