Kids Black Belts.

[DKKC]

Let me thorw a few things in the mix:

1 I have graded in a couple of different Kyokushin organisation and I had many different grading examiners from different countries and even continents. The gradings were in the same format, looking at the same material in the same way (allowing for grade differences of course). Juniors graded alongside seniors all the time. No one has ever tried me to see if I 'understand' the importance of my belt - not when I was a junior, not now, as a senior. We assume seniors know what it means to be a bleck belt and we assume juniors dont - because of their age! We don't test that understanding - we cannot test that understanding even if we want (even if some organisations have written tests and essays etc.) - only time will tell if someone honours their belt or not. I have seen adults who gave up after getting their black belt and I have seen kids who stuck with it. I've seen adults who behaved outrageously at times and I've seen juniors who have won my respect. It's not the black belt making the person, it's the person making the black belt. Besides this is a gradual process - that's why you have 10 kyu levels - that's why you have green and brown belts - to encrease responsibilities (for both kids and adults) and to see how they handle it. How do they behave as role models for lower grades in the dojo? What's their attitude to training?

2 For every person who gives up because they failed an exam, or were held back or other similar reasons (not moving away, not school/life/injury or outside conditions outside of the student's control) - for every single one of them - junior or senior - it is the instructor's individual failure. You have a person (and especially a kid) walking through that door (and I believe we have established on another thread that this is the most difficult thing - walking through that door and starting up) - whom you failed. They wanted to learn, to study and you sacrifieced them because they weren't good enough, or talented enough or gifted enough or weren't measuring up to your expectations! I'm not saying give them a black belt or never ever fail them, but if they give up disappointed or dishartened it means you - as instructors - have failed. You have not talked to them properly, explained them properly why they are held back, or why they failed, what they need to do etc. or spent enough time helping them. If we are to look at things this way - how would you rate yourselves as instructors?

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by DKKC

2 For every person who gives up because they failed an exam, or were held back or other similar reasons (not moving away, not school/life/injury or outside conditions outside of the student's control) - for every single one of them - junior or senior - it is the instructor's individual failure. You have a person (and especially a kid) walking through that door (and I believe we have established on another thread that this is the most difficult thing - walking through that door and starting up) - whom you failed. They wanted to learn, to study and you sacrifieced them because they weren't good enough, or talented enough or gifted enough or weren't measuring up to your expectations! I'm not saying give them a black belt or never ever fail them, but if they give up disappointed or dishartened it means you - as instructors - have failed. You have not talked to them properly, explained them properly why they are held back, or why they failed, what they need to do etc. or spent enough time helping them. If we are to look at things this way - how would you rate yourselves as instructors?

Fair point, DKKC.

I think even here we need to look at ourselves and the individual in question. Sometimes instructors are at fault, and sometimes the issue is so deeply ingrained in the student, that no instructor can get them to understand why certain behaviors are inadequate or unacceptable.

Good instructors will try to fix their own errors, and help even those who fight them every step of the way. But IMO, that Shodan grade isn't for everybody.

Osu!

[tmd]

DKKC - A great a well thought out post but there are some who just don't get it, can't get it in a class room environment as the same speed as everyone else and my issue is that they still feel like they are entitled to grade every x months coz they've done the same no. of classes as the other students and that as they've done the classes they're gonna pass no mater how much effort they do or don't put in - this BTW is not a kid thing, it's just more common with the kids.

To me the right thing to do is to be honest with them about there abilities and the potential time scale lag they face on their journey - In total I think I've failed or not done 10 gradings in the arts I've studied (equivalent to a BB in failure? ) I have completed more Kyokushin classes than is required for Nidan and yet I'm a 1st Kyu this has never stopped me trying and training as I know the issue is mostly mine, it's not physical so much as mental but to pick up on your point I was still put in for the gradings as I'd done the right number of classes, still charged for the privilege if I tried and no Sensei has ever talked to me about it, I just failed (or made excuses for missing the grading), picked myself up and carried on trying, others in the same boat drop out and I don't see this as 100% the fault of the instructors but a combination of several things;

1) The ability to teach a mixed group of abilities
2) The fixing of ones expectation by the nature of 3 months gradings
3) The lack of personal attention (this is mostly down to point 1 I guess)
4) The lack of ability within the individual
5) The unwillingness to be 'held back' of the individual/ parent
6) The inability to see training as ones own path
7-100) I'm sure there are more....

Still a cracking post though

[DKKC]

Originally Posted by tmd

DKKC - A great a well thought out post but there are some who just don't get it, can't get it in a class room environment as the same speed as everyone else and my issue is that they still feel like they are entitled to grade every x months coz they've done the same no. of classes as the other students and that as they've done the classes they're gonna pass no mater how much effort they do or don't put in - this BTW is not a kid thing, it's just more common with the kids.

Agreed! But I have trained with people you described above and they have won my respect with their attitude to training. A couple of these guys were two or three times worse than what you have described yourself and I have also seen my instructor (and theirs) working really hard to keep them training and keep them motivated to push themselves harder and to keep training. And they stuck with it. One of them is still a green belt and has been training for about 10-12 years - he slowed down/ gave up about 8 years ago when he became a single parent - his son was 18 mths. I guess the training for him was to prepare for what life threw at him some years ago!

The other one is a black belt now. Not the most beautiful technique, not the most flexible guy I've ever seen. But his technique is correct, his kata is as good as any black belts and he can take care of himself in a knock down fight. He is s very good instructor, perhaps because it took him so long to understand, perhaps there's where his tallent was - not in performing, but in teaching. His students are very good.

And this is because the emphasis in the club was on persevierence.

You must be logged in to view codes. Agree completely with what you say. I also think that many of the issues above can be mitigated by a good instructor who is, as yuo say, honest from the beginning and who drills into the students, as soon as they start, that:
1) the belt needs to be earned
2) everyone progresses at a different pace
3) you do NOT live or die by the grading
4) time lines are only an estimate
5) effort and attitude are as important as technique
6) the journey is more important than the destination

As far as for the ability of the instructor - this is something personal that he/she has to work on. As we strive to be the best we can be in our training, shouldn't we strive to be the best instructors we could be? And if we're not, shouldn't we look at ourselves, see our weaknesses and work on them? I believe that the same way we need to take responsibility for our training so also need to take responsibility of our teaching and learn to be a good teacher especially if we see we are lacking in some areas.

Just my 2 pence here (and yes, I don't really like teaching! )

[supergroup7]

I agree with so much that has been said here, but I have to question DKKC's idea that
"I'm not saying give them a black belt or never ever fail them, but if they give up disappointed or dishartened it means you - as instructors - have failed."

I'm having difficulties understanding this concept DKKC, although I am viewing it from an inexperienced, and more "motherly" perspective. There have been more than one time in my years as a mother when my children didn't listen, understand, or take to heart the words, and example that I provided for them. My children chose a different path than the one that I offered, and I felt responsible at first for their problems, and sorrows. However, I realized that I cannot feel that I have failed them as a mother. I did the best that I could with what I had at the time, and it was up to them to put in as much effort, also. Does not the role of instructor mirror this also?

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by DKKC

I also think that many of the issues above can be mitigated by a good instructor who is, as yuo say, honest from the beginning and who drills into the students, as soon as they start, that:
1) the belt needs to be earned
2) everyone progresses at a different pace
3) you do NOT live or die by the grading
4) time lines are only an estimate
5) effort and attitude are as important as technique
6) the journey is more important than the destination

Just my 2 pence here (and yes, I don't really like teaching! )

I think the first paragraph should be included as standard fare in any handout to beginning students. It's excellent, DKKC! Well worded and concise. No room for misinterpretation.

As for that last sentence, you're doing a pretty good job in here, so don't close that door just yet.

Osu!

[DKKC]

Originally Posted by supergroup7

I agree with so much that has been said here, but I have to question DKKC's idea that
"I'm not saying give them a black belt or never ever fail them, but if they give up disappointed or dishartened it means you - as instructors - have failed."

I'm having difficulties understanding this concept DKKC, although I am viewing it from an inexperienced, and more "motherly" perspective. There have been more than one time in my years as a mother when my children didn't listen, understand, or take to heart the words, and example that I provided for them. My children chose a different path than the one that I offered, and I felt responsible at first for their problems, and sorrows. However, I realized that I cannot feel that I have failed them as a mother. I did the best that I could with what I had at the time, and it was up to them to put in as much effort, also. Does not the role of instructor mirror this also?

Hi SP7
I would say that the relationship is slightly different the parental one. Students and instructors disagree many times - but they don't always end their relationship. the trouble is that it is very easy for a 10 yrs old to decide to stop going training just because hewasn't allowed to grade. Say you make pact with your kids that if they get straight A in school you'll buy them the toy of their dreams for their birthday. They get C and B some A in school and when their birthday arrives they don't get what they wanted. So they decide to never ever talk to you again and leave home. That's giving up karate for not grading fast enough, in my perspective. And if a kid runs away from home because he didn't receive the toy he wanted for his birthday then tehre is something very wrongwith the relationship he has with his parents and with the parenting style in itself. As I doubt a kid would get this spoilt overnight.

Disagreements between parents and children, teachers and students, instructors and trainees exist - the important thing is geting through these sticky situations together and the younger the child/student/trainee, the more the responsibility to guide, teach and help understand and deal with the situation falls onto the parent/teacher/inscructor's shoulders.

Hope this makes sense!

[DKKC]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

I think the first paragraph should be included as standard fare in any handout to beginning students. It's excellent, DKKC! Well worded and concise. No room for misinterpretation.

Osu!

Thanks Dent! Copyright DKKC @ 2008!

[vapor]

I'll keep an eye out on Dent's promotional materials over the next year!

vapor

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by DKKC

Thanks Dent! Copyright DKKC @ 2008!

Originally Posted by vapor

I'll keep an eye out on Dent's promotional materials over the next year!

vapor

I think that "Copyright DKKC 2008" sounds very official! Even better that way!

Osu!

[ANTSAN]

Originally Posted by DKKC

Hi SP7
I would say that the relationship is slightly different the parental one. Students and instructors disagree many times - but they don't always end their relationship. the trouble is that it is very easy for a 10 yrs old to decide to stop going training just because hewasn't allowed to grade. Say you make pact with your kids that if they get straight A in school you'll buy them the toy of their dreams for their birthday. They get C and B some A in school and when their birthday arrives they don't get what they wanted. So they decide to never ever talk to you again and leave home. That's giving up karate for not grading fast enough, in my perspective. And if a kid runs away from home because he didn't receive the toy he wanted for his birthday then tehre is something very wrongwith the relationship he has with his parents and with the parenting style in itself. As I doubt a kid would get this spoilt overnight.

Disagreements between parents and children, teachers and students, instructors and trainees exist - the important thing is geting through these sticky situations together and the younger the child/student/trainee, the more the responsibility to guide, teach and help understand and deal with the situation falls onto the parent/teacher/inscructor's shoulders.

Hope this makes sense!

Made sense to me, nice way of putting it.

It seems to me that there are two big questions here:

1. Are Kids being graded just because of some kind of fictitious predetermined chronological timeline which says every three - six months to the day one is elligible to grade & progress so long as they have met a preset criteria?

2. Are those being graded pursuing personal improvement, attending class to learn and develop themselves instead of simply doing whatever it takes to reach the next grade?

In the case of the first point, it seems that many dojo's follow this system only to maintain a captive audience. The motivation is always there to attend the next class because that could mean the difference between qualifying for the next grading or not. To me this sounds like the path to an empty road. The only expecatation is the expecation to wear a different belt as time goes on, so what happens after shodan? there is no-longer a foreseeable timeline or strict set of guidelines to follow in order to keep going. The comfort of having these has been removed and the maturity to progress beyond here hasn't been developed. Have they improved inwardly? personally? mentally or only in terms of belt colour? As such, the question must be asked, is this the type of shodan that should represent Kyokushin? is this the type of shodan who has earnt their rank by truly experiencing karate or by turning up to a structured month by month criteria? Is that the true meaning of the kyokushin way? In this situation what does the belt actually mean? If every student turned up to class from the beginning and was told that there would be no belt structure, the only goal would be to be as good as one could possibly be. To me this is more important than scraping in above the next requirements of the next kyu grade, its even more rewarding than meeting the requirements of a kyu grade, and it must surely develop a more sustainable environment for progress of karateka. So with this in mind does stopping children from progressing to shodan hold them back? I think the answer is no, there is always more to develop other than progressing in belt colour.

[shinobijesus]

Originally Posted by Nix

Maybe Ashihara is different from Kyokushin, but as I see it, fighting has nothing to do with your rank. One might be a good fighter, but not a technical genius. I've seen examples of students who have a good understanding of kumite, but whose kata and kihon are rubbish. And since their kata and kihon are rubbish, they are not allowed to grade. Rank is not always a good representation of the actual skills of the student.

i need to read the third page but i disagree with this. i think if a student excels in a particular area they should be allowed to grade.

expecting everyone to grasp all the different concepts at an even rate doesnt seem realistic. if someone is hovering around green or brown belt level sparring while they are barely good enough at their orange belt level of kata they should be allowed to move up. grading as a reward for fantastic skills in one facet and letting the weak points strengthen with time. instead of holding someone back due to their weakest skills so they might feel like they arent progressing even though they could tool some of their sempai in sparring.

and i completely hold to this point if it was reversed. someone whos very good at kihon can serve as an example in that aspect to his kohai even if he doesnt have a mindset for battle. or if someone has sublime technique in kata or can effectively memorize and flawlessly execute far more kata than their grade requires.

we are martial artists after all. we are learning to fight and learning to teach these techniques. the rank should represent the skills they bring to the dojo.

[ksan]

Originally Posted by shinobijesus

i think if a student excels in a particular area they should be allowed to grade.

This is how a style gets watered down....

All parts of the student should be on the level of the grading he/she is attempting.. if not... he or she doesnt grade/pass

[Nix]

shinobijesus,

It is in my opinion that the best student is one who is competent in all aspects of karate, not just one thing. For each rank, there are certain requirements that needs to be met. If one was allowed to compensate for not meeting those requirements by excel in something different, then the grading curriculum would be worthless. And if it was, it would not be a very good motivation for the student, they would just disregard kihon/kata and just fight instead (or whatever their preferences would be). Thus, they might develop a good understanding of kumite, but they might never be great, since they don't know the fundamentals. Or in other words, I believe one who know the basics of karate, know how to put them into combinations and later apply that to kumite, will ultimatelly be much greater than the one who just concentrated on one thing.

Furthermore, the Ashihara shodan certificate says something along the lines of "the student has fully understood all aspects of Ashihara karate". A student who does not understand all aspects of karate, can therefore never become yudansha.

What about footballers? A player who has a fantastic shot, but is otherwise weak, frail, slow and is more likely to fall over the ball than anything else, is he a good player? I would say no. Just as in karate, a footballer need to be capable of many things.

It's not as black and white as this, of course. There are room for small compensations, but within the curriculum. The grading board might say "okay, the kihon was not great, but the kata was decent." and then allow the student to proceed, telling the student that they expect to see some extraordinary sabaki/kumite if he/she truly wish to pass.

At the end of the day, it's the instructors responsibility to keep the students motivated, and to arrange the practice so that it is balanced. The student should give his or hers 100% and be willing to learn and improve, no matter what they practice.

Osu!

[shinobijesus]

i think you two are missing my point. i dont mean they excel as in a couple ranks better in one area and are absolutely terrible in everything else. obviously they would have to be decent at kihon since they do it everyday but i could definitely see someone not having a head for kumite or the memory for kata.

its like different classes in high school. maybe you sucked at math but were good at english. there are going to be specialists in karate as well.

i dont think someone can say something like they have "fully understood all aspects of Kyokushin karate", ever. martial arts is one of those things that your perception of changes over time, with age, with experience, by meeting new people who do it the same way, or new people who are completely opposite of yourself.

we have a difference in opinion here. you are concerned about the style being watered down or the student not representing all aspects to their level while i personally believe someone can bring the level of the dojo higher by specializing in a particular area. the skills they bring in that area will only help to raise the skills of their kohai and sempai who arent as gifted as them.

[tmd]

[quote=shinobijesus;73216]i dont think someone can say something like they have "fully understood all aspects of Kyokushin karate", ever. [quote]

I think you can fully understand - but never master it.

I don't have the memory for kihon or Kata, I'm nothing special when it comes to Clicker or Knockdown so I'm quite well balanced . I have failed scores of grading in my time because of my disabilities/ inabilities and I think this is right as there has to be a standard, what aggravates me a little is that IMO standards have slipped and I would not now fail 80% of the gradings I did.

As a fighter I don't care what colour belt I'm wearing as so much of the training you have to do for a tournament is not counted toward the number of hours you are expected to do as a minimum between grades, maybe this is something to consider. On the other side I don't think it's right that you can gain a high grade in a combative art without fighting for it.

I recently took part in an intercontinental tournament and chatting to the French team they explained that you could get a BB by following two different paths (both within 3-4 years by the way) either the kata route of the kumite route. Don't agree with this, never will.