Kids Black Belts.

Tameshigiri · 08-04-2008, 04:32 PM

How old a kid have to be to take Shodan Test in your Dojo or Organization ?

Nix · 08-04-2008, 10:09 PM

We don't grade children to kuro obi, something I think is a wise decision. When juniors are promoted to senior class around age 15, they lose two ranks and are not allowed to grade again untill after at least one year. After which they will of course need to go through the ranks they lost. I think the person I know who graded for shodan earliest, received her black belt on her eightenth birthday.

Also, I suspect we have a thread like this already, however I can't find it right now. If someone does, feel post the link, and a moderator will merge threads.

**ksan** · 08-04-2008, 10:54 PM

I dont agree with underage blackbelts...

Certain things just require a certain maturity to understand the meaning of the things you do, like driving a car, smoking, drinking alcohol, getting married....

Even 18 is still quite young in my opinion...

Osu

ANTSAN · 08-04-2008, 11:07 PM

If I remember correctly in my dojo kids have to be 16 to qualify for green belt.

blazindave · 08-05-2008, 05:20 AM

I know this 13 year old black belt from Romania.
He is very mature and has absolutely impeccable technique.
I think 16 is the limit.

Dent · 08-05-2008, 05:36 AM

Osu!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksan

I dont agree with underage blackbelts...

Certain things just require a certain maturity to understand the meaning of the things you do, like driving a car, smoking, drinking alcohol, getting married....

Even 18 is still quite young in my opinion...

Osu

I'm with you in this, Ksan! I had to wait until eighteen, and I think that should be the absolute minimum.

Osu!

**DKKC** · 08-05-2008, 10:03 PM

The minimum age is 14 in the BKK. And, although I had my doubts, after meeting some of our junior black belts, I believe they fully deserve their belts!

**tmd** · 08-05-2008, 10:24 PM

Our limit is 14 which is low enough but some have been graded younger which I think is a shame as I too mostly agree with Ksan. The issue though is not too lose the all important teenagers, so how do you keep them interested if they have followed a path of grading every xxx months then you say oh sorry you have to stop here for 2-3-4 years.

My son is going for his 1st Kyu at Christmas so next Christmas he'll be going for his BB, he'll only be 15, he's not missed a class except for family holidays in 4 years, he trains every bit as hard, has just as much commitment and focus and... (I could go on

) as the average 18 year old I even think he has the maturity to wait for 3 years but I also don't really want him doing knockdown too young so what would he be training for 3 years? Like other teenagers he has a lot of distractions and as he gets older this will only get worst so I really wouldn't want him to loose interest in his training at this age.

**ksan** · 08-05-2008, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmd

Our limit is 14 which is low enough but some have been graded younger which I think is a shame as I too mostly agree with Ksan. The issue though is not too lose the all important teenagers, so how do you keep them interested if they have followed a path of grading every xxx months then you say oh sorry you have to stop here for 2-3-4 years.

My son is going for his 1st Kyu at Christmas so next Christmas he'll be going for his BB, he'll only be 15, he's not missed a class except for family holidays in 4 years, he trains every bit as hard, has just as much commitment and focus and... (I could go on

) as the average 18 year old I even think he has the maturity to wait for 3 years but I also don't really want him doing knockdown too young so what would he be training for 3 years? Like other teenagers he has a lot of distractions and as he gets older this will only get worst so I really wouldn't want him to loose interest in his training at this age.

My shihan (then sensei) probably saw this problem comming and slowed my gradings down after green belt (4th kyu). Normally we had two gradings a year. I had to wait a year for my 3rd kyu grading and a year for my 2nd kyu grading, then two years for 1st kyu and +/-3 for blackbelt. Hardly ever missed a training in that period (5 days a week, double sessions on tuesdays and thursdays)

I can understand that there are some underaged juniors who can carry a yudansha grade, unfortunately i see many times that amount of kids who actually think they are everything after recieving a blackbelt... i also hear a lot of bad stories from others (grown up kyu grades, senpai`s and sensei`s) who encounter these youth`s during training sessions and are troubled by the way they are treated by them or the way they see those kids threat others during practise. No way anyone can tell me those kids are ready to wear a blackbelt.

I understand that this point of view might be upsetting for some... i also can understand the points some have to grade to shodan from 12 or 13 and up...

ANTSAN · 08-06-2008, 04:51 AM

Sorry if this is a naive question, but how does a kid pass a 40man kumite or a 20man kumite for that matter?

**Deaken** · 08-06-2008, 06:50 AM

OSU, I am not sure what the official IKO1 policy is on this (I would have to ask), but I personally do not think that anyone under 16 should be grading for Shodan.

Since this age group is fairly new for our school we have not had anyone reach this point yet fin this age group for it to be a consideration. I think that I will stick to my view though and only present students for shodan that are at least 16.

Nix · 08-06-2008, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANTSAN

Sorry if this is a naive question, but how does a kid pass a 40man kumite or a 20man kumite for that matter?

Curriculum are subject to change from style to organization, and even to the individual dojo.

kaloyan · 08-06-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ANTSAN

Sorry if this is a naive question, but how does a kid pass a 40man kumite or a 20man kumite for that matter?

I was wondering the same.In my opinion a kid under 18 cant physically stand the beating . There are some really strong kids at 15-16 but even they will have their head ripped off if the mature people start to spar serious.As for the kids under that age there is probably 1 in every 10000 that can do something against mature people but still not that much.

**ksan** · 08-06-2008, 10:47 AM

there is also a legal point. If an under 18 person gets injured the organisation, the instructors and the persons who fought this junior in the grading open themselves up to legal suits or criminal procedings, no matter if there was a waiver signed by the junior and/or his parents.

**Olrac** · 08-06-2008, 11:56 AM

I agree with ksan in this matter.
I know some juniors who's attitude has changed since they've received their black belt.
Some of them are just not ready to understand the responsibilities that come with that belt. I really don't like it, when a young kid with a black belt treats me like I don't know anything because I'm not wearing a black belt. (but that's my personal opinion)

**supergroup7** · 08-06-2008, 12:43 PM

I personally feel that children should not have the responsibilities and expectations of the black belt level thrust upon them. We do not expect them to become parents, or to drive a car, or to hold a job, neither should we expect them to have to live up to the challenges and demands of a Kuro obi.

Dent · 08-06-2008, 02:51 PM

Osu!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmd

Our limit is 14 which is low enough but some have been graded younger which I think is a shame as I too mostly agree with Ksan. The issue though is not too lose the all important teenagers, so how do you keep them interested if they have followed a path of grading every xxx months then you say oh sorry you have to stop here for 2-3-4 years.

This is where the introduction of Mon grades for juniors has much merit. By having say four Mon grades per Kyu, progress can be the equivalent of one Kyu per year. (With gradings every 3 months. Different groups can tweak it their own way.)

It still provides a guideline for advancement, but without pressuring either the student, or the Dojo, into testing for black belt.

Thoughts?

Osu!

**tmd** · 08-06-2008, 03:44 PM

Our juniors do do 2 gradings per grade but that stops at the age this becomes an issue so doesn't really help. I too have encounted plently of 'higher grades' not even BB's who see themselves above anyone with a lower grade - this is a bad attitude and should be delt with by the Sensei - I would add I see it in nearly as many over 18's as under.

With regards to Kumite, in ours they mostly fighter each other/ other juniors; no it is not the same as an adult grading but as has been pointed out it can't be.

I am against in principle the idea of young black belts and would agree to the oer 18 rule if there was an alternative which kept them a) moving forward and b) motivated.

To me there are only 2 true solutions; to limit the starting age, the JuJitsui I used to do didn't allow under 14's so there was never an issue of underaged BB's, second would be to have a junior and adult grading system whereby you retake whatever grade you have as a junior at 18. Not sure either will appeal to those most effected and as we have huge issues with teenage crime/ antisocial behavour etc do you really want to turn off those who do want to do something possitive?

I am a true believer that it is the person not the belt that makes a martial artist; what I feel is lacking is geting kids to see beyond the belt and understand that the martial way is about self improvement, it is not just a sport, it is not just performing a series of tests to gain another grade be it a 9th Kyu of 1st Dan; neither means anything if you as a person have not improved along the way.

One last point if I may; a grading is a test of ability, memory (sorry to say for me) and character. I think maybe this issue is made worse becuase the gradings are not hard enough, espcially for the kids, they rarely fail so they get to 1st Kyu quicker and they've never failed so they don't know what it is they have achived. If the tests were harder, if you didn't think they desplayed the right character for the next grade and didn't let them grade automatically based on attendence would this make them weaker or stronger?

Dent · 08-06-2008, 03:55 PM

Osu!

Same problems all the way through, TMD. If the gradings are tougher, we'll still increase the drop out rate.

I'm sure wiser minds than mine have had this question asked a few dozen times, but each group seems to perform a balancing act when it comes to gradings.

I heard this week that one organization held an international grading recently, and about 60% of the candidates passed. Should it have been more, or less? Was 60% ok because of the standard of the group, or was there a greater issue internationally?

I sure don't know, but even with set parameters for grading, I suspect that each group has some significant leeway.

The bigger questions are those I believe you and others have touched on are: How do we keep senior students on the training path without the carrot of belt colors?, and, How do we make sure the attitude of the belt holder isn't at odds with the philosophy of Karate-do?

Osu!

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