Zendokai Karate question + possible differences with Daido Juku Kudo

[Superfoot]

Does anyone have any information regarding the history and origins of Zendo Ryu Karate? I have watched footage of Karate exponents participiating in Zendo Kai Karate events, which are commonly billed as MMA-style Karate. From watching the video, what separates this style from Daido Juku is the use of Boxing head gear in comparison to the plastic face helments, and also the use of Shooto Gloves, rather than the cotton-woven fist padding. Other than that, (even through the use of Google) I have found no answers regarding its founder, lineage, technical approach to combat, and differences to other full-contact orientated Karate bouts.

I would be most grateful if anyone could shed some light on this question. I also have come to read that this style is popular in Australia also.

Many thanks,

Superfoot.

[Martin H]

the Zendokai you are talking about, the zendokai which uses boxing type headgear and which allows full grappling in competitions, is a offshoot from Daido juku (splintering out 1999), which in turn is a offshoot from kyokushin (splintering out 1981). The founders name is Takashi Ozawa (or so I remember, but Ive lost my notes, so I cant realy confirm that). As for why he splintered out from Daido, and what differs the two styles, I cant say.

This style exist only in japan and in thailand (where they have one dojo in bangkok).
They send a lot of fighters to pancrase, japanese vale tudo and other MMA events in japan.
Their official japanese web page is: http://www4.ocn.ne.jp/~zendokai/
They dont have a english page, so you are out of luck if you cant read japanese. Online translators have mixed successes with the page (googles translation service works best, but best in this case is a very relative term).

The australian style called zendokai, is a offshoot from shotokan and have nothing but the name in common with the japanese style of the same name.
There are also a few other styles with the same name around, but noone with any connection to kyokushin or the japanese zendokai.

[Sonik]

There's also another MMA Karate style know as Shinbukan. One of their champions fought in K-1 Heros against Yoshihiro Akiyama and lost.

[Decadent~!]

Does anyone know what happened to Tsuyoshi Ozawa and Yoshinori Momose? Do they still compete anywhere? They both initially did OK but I do not see them representing Zendo Kai for the Club Deep or RR events even though Zendo Kai seems to help the promoting end of the smaller DEEP events now.

[Kris]

Thanks for this info on Zendokai!

I picked up Zendokai a year ago here in Japan and have wondered a lot about its origins. My guesses have been that it was an off shoot of kyokushin since it is a full contact style. Lately I stumbled over some Kudo, Daido Juku videos on YouTube and started asking myself the same questions you have.

Now, I can give you a little help. I figured Ozawa would be the head instructor, but did not realised he was the actual founder. He is always present at the tournaments, maybe as the chairman, but I know he is the one in charge of the belt gradings that take place at the same time. I have seen him in a video where he does an impressive tameshiwara by breaking seven baseball bats with one kick.

About the headgear:

There are different rules for different classes in tournaments. Most of those use the "super safe". That is the headgear with a plastic visor in front of the face. If you win that tournament there is another one where your headgear looks like a leather helmet. It does to some extent protect the front of the face, but not as much as a "super safe".

About the gloves:

Another thing that is different in the rules is wheter or not the fight will continue on the ground. In all classes you are allowed to catch the leg of the opponent and perform a take down. This gives you a point. But then the match will be stopped, and resumed when both fighters stand up.

In some classes if there is a take down, the match continues on the floor. Vale Tudo style. Here I think different gloves are called for.

I can tell you that it is really tricky for me to take part in tournaments here when all info is in Japanese. I try to find some one with a descent level English to explain to me what is allowed and not. I learned in my first tournament that knees, headbutts and elbow strikes was allowed too. (Yes, headbutting like two spacemen in the "helmets", no it does not really work, but it is allowed.)

[ibuki]

OSU!
I read and read and can't find what EXACTLY is the diffrenece between Zendo and Kudo?

[Martin H]

probably politics and minor cosmetic differences in the rules.

[Kris]

I am also interested in finding out exactly where the difference is between Daido Juku (Kudo?) and Zendokai.

From watching some Daido Juku videos I see a difference in the use of take downs. To me it seems like DJ uses throws taken straight from Judo. For example the classic one where you grab the opponent around the neck and throw him over your own hip.

In ZDK I have been instructed not to grab the opponent this way around the neck with one arm, since it can be countered by him grabbing me around the waist and counter throw me backwards over his own hip.

Instead I was taught to grip around his head with both arms then to turn and twist to be able to hit him in the ribs with hiza geri (knee), and after that take him down.

So I think DJ is more full contact karate + judo where as ZDK is full contact karate with take downs done more like thai boxing and BJJ.

Having said this only watching DJ HL videos is of course not fair. A HL video is about showing the spectacular aspects of a style more than a neutral description. I am sure the people in this forum doing DJ can describe the style better.

Three things that can be looked on to analyse a style:

1. Rules and classes in tournament. (ZDK has many different classes, with/wo supersafe headgear, allowing ne waza or not (ground fighting) and of course age groups and weight is a factor.)

2. Techniques. (ZDK uses FC style follow through kicks (no snapping), boxing style punches (only), and Thai/BJJ style take downs.

3. Training. (In ZDK no kata, no long stance, light contact sparring)

I will soon be able to find the answer to this but now my Japanese is too limited to ask and understand these things here. Hopefully I will soon find a person here that can both talk the talk (English!) and walk the walk..

[Lanky Sempai]

Originally Posted by Martin H

This style exist only in japan and in thailand (where they have one dojo in bangkok).

There are ZDK schools in New Zealand also.

[ojgsxr6]

What is the difference between Kudo and Zendo Kai? Rules of competition, styles. Why did they split from Daido Juku?

[ibuki]

OSU ojgsxr6!
I have moved your question here but it has already been given a possible answer as an opinion of one of the users here (Kris). If you want to add something do it in this threrad or if you want to make somebody clarify something to you too. Let's just not spread on too many threads so the new users won't be lost in the forum and the information will be in order.
OSU!

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by Lanky Sempai

There are ZDK schools in New Zealand also.

Are you sure??
As far as I know there are no branch of the daido juku offshot zendokai in NZ. Atleast no official one. There is a australian based shotokan karate offshot also also called zendokai in NZ, that is into kickboxing and possibly MMA. but they are not the same.

[rsobrien]

So Daido Juku is an offshoot of kyokushin and Zendokai is an offshoot of Daido Juku. The difference is in Zendokai they do not always wear spacehelmets (I refuse to call them Supersafes and ask for an official ruling from a moderator to make sure they are henceforth known as Spacehelmets)?

There is also a Zendokai style in Australia that is a Shotokan offshoot.

Good so far?

Now, why did Zendokai split off (political, personal, methodology, etc.) and does anyone have a Zendokai clip or rules sheet to look at to make a comparison?

edit by ibuki:
If anyone continues to try to comment KIF official politics I will close this thread and delete the bad posts. The political stuff is not for you guys. If it was you wouldn't discuss it in this place.
The moderator asks rsobrien to write more polite posts regarding the KIF organization nad asks him to use the joke-like "Spacehelmets" in other parts of the forum where one can laugh and joke. The official name of the headgear in KIF (Kudo International federation) is Supersafe and I ask to use teh given name.
TRY NOT to make associations with the funny astronauts since Daido Juku Kudo is a very serious Martial Art.
I appologise if my words were strong enough but rules are rules!

[Kris]

Zendokai rules here (link). Only in Japanese I am afraid.

Zendokai videoclips here(link) and here(link).

[martelo]

Osu,
But Kyokushin Budo Kai (Kaicho Jon Bluming) does not work also throws and groundwork?