Steroid use

[Martin H]

In a perfect world atleast the top 16 in every competition should get tested. ie, if you get even near a medal you would get tested along the way.

The sad truth is that steroid tests are too expensive, takes too much time to process, and is more often than not too outdated for to the latest drugs available.

There is much more spent on developing new drugs that cant be found, than is on methods finding them.
The guys getting caught are mostly the low end steroid users, the ones that cannot afford the dedicated doctors and expensive drugs. But then, we dont really have the economy in knockdown karate that high end users need,

[Nix]

Fair points, Martin. I know that there are drug tests at the two biggest Ashihara tournaments (Sabaki Challenge Spirit and the upcoming Open European Championships. In the latter, fighters will be tested before the fights (or so I've heard), to ensure that the tournament will be clean.

While I realize that it is expensive to test all of the competitors, I believe that the testings should be so frequent, that the risk of beeing caught is too great, and inevitable over a few years. If a team shows up with x fighters, and one of them is caught, it will give a bad reputation on the entire team. I also think the consequences should be dire - exclusion for a few years, possibly working to have the ban work in more than one organisation, so for instance if a fighter is caught in an IKO drug test, he will also be banned from NIKO tournaments and vice versa. Maybe it should also have consequences for the entire team, so that the team must subject to even more frequent drug tests in the following years.

Organizers should also be aware of fighters who grow too quickly, or who suddenly posses "superhuman powers" such as an unbelievably high pain tolerance or incredible stamina.

Maybe this will scare some of the good fighters away, but I personally think it's infinitelly more important to sport clean fights than to allow cheaters.

[Paedde]

I think Joel has a good point of view on the subject: 8 Weeks Out.com • View topic - Leben's Positive Test

It's from MMA, but anyway, might be interesting for some people here.

Osu

[Dent]

Osu!

Hmmmmm......... The more money that goes the way of any activity, the more people will be tempted to do the wrong thing. I think that as people first and Karateka second, we should take a very dim view of all illegal drugs in all walks of life. We can't give the beady eyeball to an athlete who is doping, and turn a blind eye to the person at the office who does (insert recreational pharmaceutical here) at the office party.

It's a whole package thing. There's no need to call in the Feds, but actions do speak louder than words.

Osu!

[Nix]

I have to disagree with you there, Dent. There is a difference between what you do in private and what you do in public. What you are saying, is that cheating in poker is no worse than cheating in solitaire. In poker, you are cheating everybody else at the table, while in solitaire you are only cheating yourself (and noone else cares). The same applies on the mat, since evidently you are giving your opponents the failure he or she did not deserve. At a private party, either noone cares/notices or you are only making a fool out of yourself, and it does not have consequences for anyone but yourself, unless you get behind the wheel or something similarly stupid (and this is where it becomes a problem).

Second of all, I believe we as karateka should strive for purety and honesty, not only in ourselves but also toward others. That also means beeing a good role model for our junior students, and to keep a good reputation for our sport. How many of you have any respect for bicycle racing, for example?

Third of all, apathy towards doping is the same as accepting it, I feel. We should work towards eliminating it, instead of just ignoring it and let it spread like a virus.

[tmd]

I think we have to see ourselves for what we are - amateurs, it is an amateur sport with amateur funding, i would not like to see great wodges of cash taken out of any of the organizations to do the kind of testing needed to catch steroid abusers as I understand it is very, very expensive. Yes there are some, (this is a guess based on the fact that there are some in all walks of life) and they may or may not have an advantage as they take to the mat but how would we deal with those caught? All they would do is change sport, it would change nothing really for them but could damage the reputation of a fully legit dojo, taint the name of the Sensei and darken the reputation of our ART - I think we need to see more evidence of multiple placement by 'suspects' before we start to worry too much.

I agree with Smoothsake, I am not being ambivalent or accepting, I reckon 20%+ of the guys at the gym I used to go to were on something and none of them did any martial art (some did 'compete' but that's another story. To most of them if they are big enough they are tough enough and don't need to learn an MA - I know this mindset exists because where I was offered some juice, and I explained that I was a martial artist and against the use of such things (I wasn't that polite ) - "You'd don't need to know any of that crap when you're 20 stone of muscle." Was the reply, this is how most meat head roid users think - The martial arts is about having a personal pride and spirit and being honorable so to me not compatible with a cheating numb skull - this is one of the reasons I bang on about us not letting our beloved art be clouded by the way we play, that is to say knockdown should always be an intrinsic part of Kyokushin Karate - but it is never been seen as Kyokushin Karate - the danger is the more tournament victory is seen as the goal the more widespread drug taking will be as those who would struggle to reach the top, seek that bit of help they need to compete at that level, Dent you talk of a level playing field but I honestly think those who cheat do so not to be the best of the best and rise out of sight of the competition but because without it they could never be competitive; to me this is why people cheat, out of all the banned athletes who has ever comeback who has been seriously competitive? None because their natural peak is below that of the true champions.

Now if competitive glory is seen as a greater achievement than becoming a true martial artist more people will cheat, believe me if you want to stop cheating do not hold up your top fighters with more esteem than your top martial artists, do not look down on those who never wish to test themselves in a ring or on a mat. Make everyone who enters your dojo realize that the martial way is a personal journey and will aways lead to great things - who would cheat themselves on a personal quest?

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Nix

I have to disagree with you there, Dent. There is a difference between what you do in private and what you do in public. What you are saying, is that cheating in poker is no worse than cheating in solitaire. In poker, you are cheating everybody else at the table, while in solitaire you are only cheating yourself (and noone else cares). The same applies on the mat, since evidently you are giving your opponents the failure he or she did not deserve. At a private party, either noone cares/notices or you are only making a fool out of yourself, and it does not have consequences for anyone but yourself, unless you get behind the wheel or something similarly stupid (and this is where it becomes a problem).

Second of all, I believe we as karateka should strive for purety and honesty, not only in ourselves but also toward others. That also means beeing a good role model for our junior students, and to keep a good reputation for our sport. How many of you have any respect for bicycle racing, for example?

Third of all, apathy towards doping is the same as accepting it, I feel. We should work towards eliminating it, instead of just ignoring it and let it spread like a virus.

If you switch it around, Nix, you'll have my position. Cheating in solitaire is as bad as cheating in poker. It's still cheating. If we do negative things, we give others social permission to do the same.

Given my strong disagreement with the application of most of the drug laws though, I can't see going to the authorities to clean up the situation. I think that it's better to try and help those who are willing to ask for it.

This is also why I'm a hair away from being a hermit.

Osu!

[walshy]

Osu, steroid use and drug use affects all those in contact with the user. A very close friend of mine, ex friend now, is on his second run of steroid mis-use in the space of a few years. It has wrecked our 24 year friendship and is slowly wrecking his family. Add to that the recreational drug use and he is on a very destructive path for himself and all that are close to him. I am lucky that I can walk away, his family not so! So although my ex friend is cheating himself he is also cheating all around him with his selfish actions, and all for a few muscles!!

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

This is also why I'm a hair away from being a hermit.

Osu!

I feel like that as well sometimes

[Dent]

Osu!

I'm sorry to hear that you are losing a friendship, Walshy. I've seen what drugs can do to some of the folk that use them. Sure, some walk away fine, but others... Well, we buried one of my childhood friends last year. He'd been a cop, working with narcotics. It doesn't take a genius to figure out what went wrong...

R.I.P. Anthony.

Osu!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by walshy

Osu, steroid use and drug use affects all those in contact with the user. A very close friend of mine, ex friend now, is on his second run of steroid mis-use in the space of a few years. It has wrecked our 24 year friendship and is slowly wrecking his family. Add to that the recreational drug use and he is on a very destructive path for himself and all that are close to him. I am lucky that I can walk away, his family not so! So although my ex friend is cheating himself he is also cheating all around him with his selfish actions, and all for a few muscles!!

There is nothing stranger than folk is there? I'm sorry to hear this Walshy I have a few friends similarly effected, one guy who actually took his own life, another who tired despite having two beautiful daughters

I think maybe we picked up on the wrong thing in Seienchin post - what can we do in the wider world to stop the abuse of a drug that is so dangerous?

I think we have to look at the why, why do people take it? Is it a feeling of weakness, that they need to be huge for self protection reasons?

Is it that the image of man as being an 80-90kG six packed Greek God that is so perpetuated across the media that those with a poor self image feel they have to achieve this to be excepted, similar in effect to the size zero females that are held up as why girls & ladies suffer from ballemia. Juiced young men are potentially more damaging to the wider community but when was the last or even first time you heard of anyone complaining - (male liberation needs to find a voice ).

It is because they are there? To easy to get hold of is what we need much tougher policing to protect people from their own weakness.

Is it because there is not enough info out there about the negative effects of these drugs, you go into any gym with a set of plates in it and you'll hear all about the positive, maybe all gyms should be made by law to display a poster explaining the risks - I will add I don't think saying to some 20 year old guy don't take them it will make a difference to you in x no. of years - 90% don't care, how many 20 year olds do you know with a pension?

IMO the answer to all the above can be the martial way, it can build self confidence to the point of the individual not seeking out the need to be the body beautiful or need 18" Arms for SP reasons but see themselves as a better person.

[Nix]

Originally Posted by tmd

Is it because there is not enough info out there about the negative effects of these drugs, you go into any gym with a set of plates in it and you'll hear all about the positive, maybe all gyms should be made by law to display a poster explaining the risks [?]

Here in Denmark, the large gyms have started doing doping tests of their members. I'm not sure wha tI think of that, because I don't care what they do with themselves; I have a problem with it once they go out and compete in karate tournaments. That beeing said, maybe it becomes harder to get in contact with the drugs.

To your last point, I'd like to point out that the martial way is not for everyone.

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Nix

Here in Denmark, the large gyms have started doing doping tests of their members. I'm not sure wha tI think of that, because I don't care what they do with themselves; I have a problem with it once they go out and compete in karate tournaments. That beeing said, maybe it becomes harder to get in contact with the drugs.


This will only mask the problems as they will make those tempted seek out the 'hard core' gyms which are more likely to be pushing anyhow.



To your last point, I'd like to point out that the martial way is not for everyone.

A) Maybe it should be, b) it it for everyone who has the type of issues I describe, low self esteem, worries about SP etc and c) it is for everyone who does karate so everyone you are concerned about in your post

[rids]

The speed and flexibility in a martial art like karate means that any sort of excessive anabolic steroid use and you'll be tearing ligaments and tendons left right and center. Having bigger legs isn't going to make that jodan mawashi geri any better, it just means you've got more potential to damage yourself.

[mary222]

im glad you guys broth this tread back.

last weekend i attended a tourney. And im not here to point fingers on anyone or judge but i can say that i was concern about the "cleanness" of some figthers. And it got me woundering if there are any case where women would by tempted to juice too. im talking MA speceficlly here cause i know in most sport irregularities happend with both men and women.

[poison]

Originally Posted by tmd

There is nothing stranger than folk is there? I'm sorry to hear this Walshy I have a few friends similarly effected, one guy who actually took his own life, another who tired despite having two beautiful daughters

I think maybe we picked up on the wrong thing in Seienchin post - what can we do in the wider world to stop the abuse of a drug that is so dangerous?

I think we have to look at the why, why do people take it? Is it a feeling of weakness, that they need to be huge for self protection reasons?

Is it that the image of man as being an 80-90kG six packed Greek God that is so perpetuated across the media that those with a poor self image feel they have to achieve this to be excepted, similar in effect to the size zero females that are held up as why girls & ladies suffer from ballemia. Juiced young men are potentially more damaging to the wider community but when was the last or even first time you heard of anyone complaining - (male liberation needs to find a voice ).

It is because they are there? To easy to get hold of is what we need much tougher policing to protect people from their own weakness.

Is it because there is not enough info out there about the negative effects of these drugs, you go into any gym with a set of plates in it and you'll hear all about the positive, maybe all gyms should be made by law to display a poster explaining the risks - I will add I don't think saying to some 20 year old guy don't take them it will make a difference to you in x no. of years - 90% don't care, how many 20 year olds do you know with a pension?

IMO the answer to all the above can be the martial way, it can build self confidence to the point of the individual not seeking out the need to be the body beautiful or need 18" Arms for SP reasons but see themselves as a better person.

That may be sufficient for you, but the next guy may get his sense of personal achievement from deadlifting 1070lbs, and he might see your quest for self-dominance through martial arts as...stupid.

You might say "but why dope, which is cheating", well, he might say he wants to push his body to the max. Your assumption that martial arts is a one stop shop for everything is disingenuous, and would generally make the world much less interesting.

I would say, based on some peoples definitions here, that carb loading is cheating, a cup of coffee pre-competition is cheating, that lifting weights is cheating, supplementing creatine is cheating, etc. All are unessential things, things outside your normal routine you might do to help yourself win.

There's a huge stigma against AAS (anabolic androgenic steroids). They aren't evil, and not everyone who does it is misguided or cheating. You can't say it's a matter or health or misuse or easy availability; about 56.532 million more people in the US abuse alcohol and/or cigarettes than abuse steroids, but alcohol and cigarettes don't incite the vehement anger and self-righteousness steroids do.

Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people use steroids wisely, and rarely do you read about them; you only see the stories of sad individuals who misuse them. But that's not the whole picture. The standard steroids are inexpensive, easy to use, and safer than some OTC medicines. Done right, the impact on the body is less than smoking or drinking minimally.

I think it's ridiculous that steroids are illegal, but cigarettes and alcohol aren't. Cigarettes kill 50% of the people who use em. Alcohol abuse kills people, and people drinking kill others. Steroid users rarely die (from steroid use), and steroid users don't kill others because of steroid use.

Bottom line, I think it should be an individuals choice to use, or not. Competition should be open, or steroid free, to level the playing field. End of story.

In case you were wondering, I've never used an AAS. Ask me after I'm 45-50, that may change.

Originally Posted by rids

The speed and flexibility in a martial art like karate means that any sort of excessive anabolic steroid use and you'll be tearing ligaments and tendons left right and center. Having bigger legs isn't going to make that jodan mawashi geri any better, it just means you've got more potential to damage yourself.

Not at all true. Nearly every bit of that is wrong.

[seienchin]

I hear plenty of people with no proven knowledge or qualifications claiming that steroids are safe. Why then do the people who have years and years of training publish articles like this???

The dire consequences of doping
Peter A Gerber, Gabriela Kukova, Stephan Meller, Norbert J Neumann, Bernhard Homey. The Lancet. London: Aug 23-Aug 29, 2008. Vol. 372, Iss. 9639; pg. 656, 1 pgs



Full Text (234 words)
Copyright Elsevier Limited Aug 23-Aug 29, 2008

Various cases in professional sports have brought the matter of doping-the use of performance-enhancing drugs-to the attention of the broad public. Here, we present a case of doping in a 21-year-old amateur bodybuilder. The man presented to our clinic feeling generally unwell. He was subfebrile and had massive, deep ulcerations, abscesses, and pustules located on his chest and upper back (figure). Persistent questioning revealed a history of continuous abuse of anabolic-androgenic steroids (testosterone enantate 250 mg plus metandienona 30 mg twice weekly), which was consistent with the diagnosis of a severe acne conglobata that was anabolic-androgenic steroid induced. Additional investigations showed a substantial impairment in sperm concentration and reduced testicular volume. Skin lesions showed rapid improvement after discontinuation of anabolic-androgenic steroid abuse and with antiseptic and antibiotic therapy. However, the extensive scarring is likely to remain with the young man for the rest of his life.
Enlarge 200%Enlarge 400%[Photograph]Figure: Severe acne conglobate induced by anabolk-androgenic steroidsThe patient at the time of his ideal body image; the 21-year-old bodybuilder had a history of anabolic-androgenic steroid abuse (A). Severe acne conglobata (B); lesions include papules, pustules, abscesses, and deep ulcerations. Patient after 6 weeks of antiseptic-antibiotic therapy (C).