Steroid use

[tmd]

[quote=poison;80598]

Originally Posted by tmd

Here in lies the problem with the supply of all illegal substances: Its not like any other medication, it will not be administer properly by professionals and it will be abused, a lot of the time unwittingly as the true dosages, are not calculated for the individuals size, age training program, recover times on/off cycle, etc, etc. Ergo they are not used properly by adults and I have seen kids as young as 16 inquiring about there use, then being covered in ache a few weeks later

You can't make a statement like 'it WILL NOT be administered properly' or 'it WILL be abused'. Is there something in that happens when you touch the vial, or insert the needle, which guarantees misuse or abuse? These things are VERY well studied, and info is highly available.

I can because I've seen it - if I have born witness I can call it the truth, no?

I understand your point Poison I do, and agree that a lot of the 'proper users' do know what they are doing and they are currently the majority but I am seeing more and more casual and unchecked usage by younger and younger (or is it that I'm getting older and older guys who don't understand dosages or cycles or anything they just bang back a bunch of pills or whatever and if that doesnt work they stack it with something else, they don't eat right, they don't train right they think they've taken a magic bean to replace al the hard work the clean guys have put in.

As I have said before, to me it is not (curently) taken by those who are naturally top of the tree in any sport but by those who struggle to get there naturally and need the boost, there are sports where taking it is already ignored and where it's use has become manditory - I don't need to name them as we all know what they are and can't coz on a site such as K4L it could be deemed as liable.

I agree. Hence my statement that there should be open events, and drug-free, kind of like now.

Can't happen bud, sorry it just can't happen - people will always be intrigued and want to see the guys & girls who have the biggest muscles, can lift the most, run the fastest or is the outright hardest etc and the Roid boys will always be top dog so if you wanted to be the Ultimiate you'd have to take the Poison (no pun intended he, he)

Mmmm, tasty!

You first

[poison]

I can because I've seen it - if I have born witness I can call it the truth, no?

You've seen what you've seen, I don't discount that, but you've only seen a negligible amount of the total steroid users. Sweeping statements like 'they will be abused' implies a guarantee, and that is certainly nowhere near close to the truth.

but I am seeing more and more casual and unchecked usage by younger and younger (or is it that I'm getting older and older guys who don't understand dosages or cycles or anything they just bang back a bunch of pills or whatever and if that doesnt work they stack it with something else, they don't eat right, they don't train right they think they've taken a magic bean to replace al the hard work the clean guys have put in.

So when steroids were un-abused, they were fine, but now they're somehow eviler because kids are stupid? It's not the steroids. This is a whole different topic, but it comes down to a breakdown in the family unit, parents not knowing what their kids are doing, societal pressure from media, unrealistic body expectations, lack of a work ethic, etc. But it certainly does not make steroids better or worse, or responsible for their users actions.

Can't happen bud, sorry it just can't happen - people will always be intrigued and want to see the guys & girls who have the biggest muscles, can lift the most, run the fastest or is the outright hardest etc and the Roid boys will always be top dog so if you wanted to be the Ultimiate you'd have to take the Poison (no pun intended he, he)

Can't happen? It's happening right now. Bodybuilding and powerlifting have drug-free events, plain and simple. Untested events are just that, events for non-dopers. There are those who will try steroids, and those who won't, and that will always be the case. I think demonizing those who use them honestly, ie aren't hiding use and winning as non-users, is a crock of crap.

[tmd]

Originally Posted by poison

You've seen what you've seen, I don't discount that, but you've only seen a negligible amount of the total steroid users. Sweeping statements like 'they will be abused' implies a guarantee, and that is certainly nowhere near close to the truth.

Understandable and conceded but I can't be everywhere

So when steroids were un-abused, they were fine, but now they're somehow eviler because kids are stupid? It's not the steroids. This is a whole different topic, but it comes down to a breakdown in the family unit, parents not knowing what their kids are doing, societal pressure from media, unrealistic body expectations, lack of a work ethic, etc. But it certainly does not make steroids better or worse, or responsible for their users actions.

Drugs can only be abused when they are available and when there is motive - the more widely available the more abuse and if anybody young or old sees a guys five times their size and thinks I want to be like that, NOW! And they can easily get hold of the drugs, well desire plus availability = temptation - Your text implied that it was all okay having them available because it was mostly middleclass 25+'s that were the majority of users and I just say; so what if they are the majority? so what if the majority can handle it, understand the risks etc? I don't care about them, I care about the stupid, the uninformed and those who would abuse it for personal gain or glory.

Saying it's no the steroids fault or responsibility is a bit like saying it's not the cars fault for running you over, I know that!

Laws are there for everyone to abide by but in the main are mostly there to protect the vulnerable and the stupid, there are always people bleating on about making cannabis legal coz it did them no harm, but if a youth takes skunk it can lead to life long mental health problems - do not try and argue with me on this point - someone I love dearly has had to be sectioned several times in his young life and it was 100% def down to the misuse of this drug during his teenage years - why did he do it? Coz his mates did - would he have done it if they were properly policed and unavailable? NO.

Can't happen? It's happening right now. Bodybuilding and power lifting have drug-free events, plain and simple. Untested events are just that, events for non-dopers. There are those who will try steroids, and those who won't, and that will always be the case. I think demonizing those who use them honestly, ie aren't hiding use and winning as non-users, is a crock of crap.

In my opinion they are not honestly using them because you don't see anyone actually saying they take them. When the event organizers are asked if everyone's on juice they don't say yes, they just say they don't test for them so they don't know.

They have clean events and normal events - they don't say with steroids and without do they? In all the mags these guys appear they don't say oh I'm this or that because I take gear they just peddle expensive powders and say I'm huge coz I take Super Bulky Pure Muscle MAX.

Enjoying this Poison, you state a good case and I understand the majority of your points - just don't agree with them

[poison]

Drugs can only be abused when they are available and when there is motive - the more widely available the more abuse and if anybody young or old sees a guys five times their size and thinks I want to be like that, NOW! And they can easily get hold of the drugs, well desire plus availability = temptation - Your text implied that it was all okay having them available because it was mostly middleclass 25+'s that were the majority of users and I just say; so what if they are the majority? so what if the majority can handle it, understand the risks etc? I don't care about them, I care about the stupid, the uninformed and those who would abuse it for personal gain or glory.

They're readily available now, as you said, but you still see kids doing it all the time even though they are illegal now. Legalizing it would not make it more readily available to the stupid, necessarily, as anyone with half a brain can pick some up now without issue, but it would allow the many people using to actually consult their doctors and not have to hide, and allow the stupid who do it anyway, like the yahoo in the pics above, to avoid freakin abcesses on his chest.

For some reason when a 50yo guy does it, its called hormone replacement therapy; if a 32yo guy does it, it's EVIL, he's a retard, he has self-image issues, and he's doing it wrong.

Doctors drug our kids with Ritalin, though that's rarely the best option, but it's cool because it's legal and doctor sanctioned. People experiencing stress at work easily get Xanax, but hey, it's legal and from the doc! You're 21? Smoke up and have a liter of vodka, please, just don't do steroids, OMG, the horror!

How do you feel about minors smoking tobacco, and the fact that 50% WILL DIE from smoking, while virtually no steroid users will die from steroid use, this including the dumbass users?

In my opinion they are not honestly using them because you don't see anyone actually saying they take them. When the event organizers are asked if everyone's on juice they don't say yes, they just say they don't test for them so they don't know.

They have clean events and normal events - they don't say with steroids and without do they? In all the mags these guys appear they don't say oh I'm this or that because I take gear they just peddle expensive powders and say I'm huge coz I take Super Bulky Pure Muscle MAX.

Guys don't explicitly say they dope because the Fed's might tap their a$$ in federal pen. An open competition is KNOWN to be for dopers; it is 100% positive that anyone there wishing to win is doping. Natural guys won't even show up. What you aren't realizing is that 'natural' competitions are tested, and clearly specified as being steroid-free. So the playing field is as level as it can be. If it were legal, everyone would be free to say they dope, and it would simplify things.

But when I said 'those who use them honestly' I mean those who use them in the correct competition, or for non-competitive purposes. You'd be surprised how many people who use, do so quietly for their own benefit, not to look hot on the beach or otherwise show off. Some people even do it out of need: I know plenty of cops and soldiers who use. If I was a cop, or soldier in Iraq, I would be juicing for sure. Why? Stronger is ALWAYS better, and it could save my life, or those of my buddies. What lengths you go to to become stronger, well, I believe it should be a personal choice. I mean hey, I can eat myself into a 500lb blob, get diabetes, and die from clogged arteries, but I can't get big and strong as possible? WTH? 30% of this country is overweight or obese, and about to develop one of several nasty diseases, but the dude eating healthy, working out, and using roids is the problem? I'd laugh if it weren't utterly idiotic.


Anyone who is found using steroids in a competitive steroid-free event should be stripped of their medal and banned from competing, for life.

Enjoying this Poison, you state a good case and I understand the majority of your points - just don't agree with them

I enjoyed it too, thanks for keeping it civil.

[Dent]

Osu!

And a Mods opinion on the discourse?

Well done on debating the points, and not each other. Solid arguments on both sides, and food for thought too. Have some rep!

(Note: Apparently I think so highly of you, TMD, that I must add to others rep again before giving more to you. The will was there, but the Forumhand stepped in.)

Osu!

[poison]

Thanks for hearing me out!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by poison

They're readily available now, as you said, but you still see kids doing it all the time even though they are illegal now. Legalizing it would not make it more readily available to the stupid, necessarily, as anyone with half a brain can pick some up now without issue,

I don't think you can say the police don't catch or even know how to police this issue so its easy to get hold as as a reason for legalization, If I wanted to I could this afternoon buy, crack, heroin, coce or even a gun - the police would be unaware of my actions - it just illustrates that the lack of funding suffered by our policing system for years has left us with gaps that we must fill with good information (what is your opinion on the idea of a statutory notice about there correct use/potential side effects in all Gyms?) , high moral standards and civil policing all sadly lacking currently.


but it would allow the many people using to actually consult their doctors and not have to hide, and allow the stupid who do it anyway, like the yahoo in the pics above, to avoid freakin abcesses on his chest.

For some reason when a 50yo guy does it, its called hormone replacement therapy; if a 32yo guy does it, it's EVIL, he's a retard, he has self-image issues, and he's doing it wrong.


Simple difference if 50 yo is legally prescribed and 32yo purchases them illegally; I don't think anyone is evil for using them, in fact I say each to his own for self amusement/ gratification with the caveat that they do do harm to users and those around them - maybe you could argue the people who rage on them are mentally weak or damaged in another way but again this is what the law is there for - you cannot evaluate the use of illegal substances or there potential effects, bugger this sounds like a pro argument

I'm no expert here but would think that the Doctor/ Patient confidentially would allow you to tell the Doctor that the condition is from taking steroids without any potential legal ramifications? But I'm not sure.

Doctors drug our kids with Ritalin, though that's rarely the best option, but it's cool because it's legal and doctor sanctioned. People experiencing stress at work easily get Xanax, but hey, it's legal and from the doc! You're 21? Smoke up and have a liter of vodka, please, just don't do steroids, OMG, the horror!

Don't do steroids, crack heroin, etc etc, legal/ illegal - I understand, it is frustrating what is and isn't legal and don't get me started on the use of Ritalin, no kid of mine will ever be prescribed such crap, I'll just find a teacher who can do their job without the kids having to behave like Zombies.

How do you feel about minors smoking tobacco, and the fact that 50% WILL DIE from smoking, while virtually no steroid users will die from steroid use, this including the dumbass users?

It sickens me that kids can smoke & drink - again this goes back to living in a more informed and responsible society where parents take responsibility for the actions of their kids and kids learn what civil obedience is all about and take pride in themselves. Most people doing 100 on the motorway don't die but the ones that do often take people with them, hence we have a limit on speed and certain drugs (like speed ).

Guys don't explicitly say they dope because the Fed's might tap their a$$ in federal pen. An open competition is KNOWN to be for dopers; it is 100% positive that anyone there wishing to win is doping. Natural guys won't even show up. What you aren't realizing is that 'natural' competitions are tested, and clearly specified as being steroid-free. So the playing field is as level as it can be. If it were legal, everyone would be free to say they dope, and it would simplify things.

But when I said 'those who use them honestly' I mean those who use them in the correct competition, or for non-competitive purposes. You'd be surprised how many people who use, do so quietly for their own benefit, not to look hot on the beach or otherwise show off. Some people even do it out of need: I know plenty of cops and soldiers who use. If I was a cop, or soldier in Iraq, I would be juicing for sure. Why? Stronger is ALWAYS better, and it could save my life, or those of my buddies. What lengths you go to to become stronger, well, I believe it should be a personal choice. I mean hey, I can eat myself into a 500lb blob, get diabetes, and die from clogged arteries, but I can't get big and strong as possible? WTH? 30% of this country is overweight or obese, and about to develop one of several nasty diseases, but the dude eating healthy, working out, and using roids is the problem? I'd laugh if it weren't utterly idiotic.

So much of this is right but why Juice? Is it a time thing? That we are so accustomed to the idea of the 6 week or 12 week program making miraculous gains that the only way to actually keep the same time frame as the before and after shots in the mags is to 'cheat'. Do you not think that these guys coming out and saying this has taken me 5, 10, 15 years to build this bod would put people into a more realistic time frame?

Anyone who is found using steroids in a competitive steroid-free event should be stripped of their medal and banned from competing, for life.

Yea!

I enjoyed it too, thanks for keeping it civil.

To me the argument falls and stands on the idea of freedom of choice. The Olympic ideal taken to all sports is to test man to his limits; if we say taking performance enhancing drugs (coz you couldn't just say yes to roids and not the rest) is ok/ legal here would no longer be a choice, if you wanted to be the best you'd have to take an immense cocktail of drugs. Would this then be testing man or the chemists to their limits.

I would rather they be looking to make the majority of your examples less widely available not allow what is currently illegal to be more available just to allow us to 'keep up'. I would rather live in a society where the police don't need to be juiced up, where kids cant smoke or drink without consequences, where moderation in eating and drinking among adults was the norm. This sounds Utopian but it is a potential reality, we need to not let it slip away from us.

Thank you for taking the time to take part in an open and honest debate.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by poison

An adult CAN use steroids properly; it's done in the medical community all the time. You can't use acid, cocaine, or heroin properly; they shouldn't be used, period, and there is virtually no use for them medically.

Actually, steroids are probably prescribed less frequently, or about on-par with heroin (also known as dia-morphine) and certainly far less frequently than its derivatives (morphine, codeine, oxycodone). Cocaine is used extensively and responsibly in Ear Nose and Throat Surgery, and acid is currently being re-examined for potential therapeutic uses, for example, in the treatment of a particularly noxious condition called "cluster headaches'.
Response of cluster headache to psilocybin and LSD. [Neurology. 2006] - PubMed Result

The decision to prescribe any restricted drug (that is, one that needs a doctors prescription) is made balancing the potential harm against the potential gain. In the examples I gave above, substances that are so clearly harmful in general use have the capacity to be used well when controlled by health professionals, who themselves are controlled in how these are used.

anabolic steroids fall into exactly the same category. They are not lollies, to be bought over the counter and dosed at will. They are currently available under prescription, just as herion and cocaine are in some countries. However, just as a doctor cannot prescribe cocaine to fuel someone's habit, he or she cannot properly prescribe steroids to fuel someones sporting ambitions. Those are just the rules of the profession, the rule of law, and those rules are supported by sporting bans.

use of steroids without medical supervision is highly risky, but so too is the situation where you are being supervised by a doctor who is prepared to operate outside the law. Such doctors often have very unconventional and often unsafe practice, and because it is illegal, it is not open to peer review and other scrutiny that is critical to keeping patients safe and doctors within boundaries.

Just don't take the risk!!!!

[Bloke]

Posion and TMD - Great debate on the use of steroids - well argued on both sides - I take my hat off to you.

But just to get back to the original topic and Seinchins original question - should we be doing more to catch people who use banned substances in our competitions? (I know there was more but thats the gist of it). Short answer yes as they are outside the scope of the rules.

[tmd]

Absolutely Bloke, absolutely but as I understand it (please someone step in and let me know how much these things cost!) the cost as I understand it is prohibitive at all but the biggest events. What I think has been missed is that on the day Steroids won't help you in any category except maybe heavy weight will it? For example you are naturally 70kG's and you bulk up to 80kG's what is your advantage over someone who natural weights 80kG's?

What needs to be considered is the on the day stuff too, Ephedrine and Cocaine come to mind but |I'm sure there are others - they will give you a boost in energy and performance and I think I'm right in saying are l a lot easier to spot - you catch a few testing for these and make it clear that all drug cheats will be banned for all Kyokushin competitions & dojos World wide for life and it could also reduce the number of Roid users who don't realize you can't detect it in the cheaper tests. I am not medically qualified in the slightest so I could be completely wrong

[Bloke]

TMD The cost is prohibitive as far as my limited knwoledge goes - one test can be £250 if I remember correctly. At that rate even just testing the top 4 in each category (3 for men and 2 for women) would be £5,000!!!!!!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Bloke

TMD The cost is prohibitive as far as my limited knwoledge goes - one test can be £250 if I remember correctly. At that rate even just testing the top 4 in each category (3 for men and 2 for women) would be £5,000!!!!!!

This is similar to what I heard for Steroids - whereas the test for stimulants can be done on site and is a lot cheaper??? Another potentially lethal set of drugs could be the ones to make weights, to dehydrate you? These can kill you on the spot, but similarly to the stimulants show up in a simple urine test - Again I could be wrong

[seienchin]

Wow! Here in Aus, a Urine Drug Screen only costs about AUD$50 (at current exchange rates that about 20 Pounds. But even at those levels, it is not done often.

[Dent]

Osu!

Not to rain on any testing parades, but the cheap ones will be foiled by the cleansing routines/ products that pop up on the net as soon as I searched for test costs. The really good ones take real money, and organizers either don't have the funds, or aren't willing to eat into their profits on two levels.

The first will be the cost of the tests, and the second the drop in the athlete numbers. Could it be that this is where the real test is? Do those at the top of our organizational food chains have the courage to go the drug-free route...?

Osu!

[poison]

Originally Posted by seienchin

Actually, steroids are probably prescribed less frequently, or about on-par with heroin (also known as dia-morphine) and certainly far less frequently than its derivatives (morphine, codeine, oxycodone). Cocaine is used extensively and responsibly in Ear Nose and Throat Surgery, and acid is currently being re-examined for potential therapeutic uses, for example, in the treatment of a particularly noxious condition called "cluster headaches'.
Response of cluster headache to psilocybin and LSD. [Neurology. 2006] - PubMed Result

Yeah, I knew that was going to come up (I wasn't aware of cocaine being used much medically, actually). Maybe I'm wrong, but the way I see it is the street versions of these drugs are quite different from the medical versions. Tar is not morphine, thought they are similar, and blow is not what your ENT is prescribing. The medical versions are VERY tightly controlled. You simply cannot use these properly, medical grade or otherwise; there is absolutely no way Joe Blow could need, or use them without medical help.