Steroid use

[seienchin]

I am interested to hear what the drug screening regimes are in various parts of the world, and in the different organisations. This reflection has been stimulated by another kyokushin fighter being arrested for violence, and it caused me to wonder if we are failing to detect abuse of anabolic steroids in our young men (and women). (I am not, of course saying that this was the cause of the episode, it just got me thinking of what could cause somebody who is supposed to be disciplined to go down the path of violence).

So - what are your experiences and opinions. Do we drug test enough? Have you ever been up against an opponent that you were pretty sure was doped (no names or identifying detail please - we don't want to be defaming the innocent). should elite fighters be on the kind of drug surveillance that we subject our olympic athletes to?

[Sonik]

I'm all for it. i 'm against the use of anabolics. It's not fair for the opponent and most of all it's damaging for the body. I stoped going to a Ju-jutsu academy because of that. The instructors although they're considered to be the best here, they have no problems with having their top students juiced. I was also training MMA there and these guys wanted me to represent them and they were insisting on offering me steroids. So i stoped going there. There were other reasons as well but that was the main one.

[Lucy]

Thats bad form i say Sonik. You were wise to leave them. In my last tournament they were doing random blood tests. It was good to see. I was starting to wonder if they ever did them in my organisation, but ive only been in 4 tournaments in the UK so obviously we do in the BKK.

I would say in the highest levels of competition (elite) then yes drug testing should be compulsory for all competitors. No i can't say i have ever faced an opponent whom i thought was doped.

[sonofkanga]

Interesting subject.
My thoughts,
If people think something will give them an edge they will use it,mostly regardless of any possible consequences.
So,drug use is,has been,and will continue to be a part of the tournament scene.
The question is what road should the governing bodies take.
morally it is obvious that drugs should be banned,practically there are to paths to choose from.
The body building way-no tests,no questions.Which is the state of affairs right now.
The Olympic way-using the WADA to screen and test.
This way gives an unfair edge to wealthier more educated groups that have access to better substance regimes,higher quality,and expertise.Which defeats the whole reason for drug testing-evening out the field.

This one is a tough one to call,and depends on the direction the fighting scene is heading.

[Dave UK]

Lucy I think the blood tests at the regional were blood gas tests taken to check blood oxygen levels as a precaution, part of the BKK's new medical team's approach. I think that there have been random drug tests over the years and I heard a rumour of a positive result where the person was banned but I have no idea of the details of that case, if it were true. Personally I would like it to be a standard procedure but cost is often an issue. Use of human growth hormone is as big a problem in sport as steroids, although it's fairly easy to spot as it enlarges the jaw often pulling the lower set of teeth apart. I think random testing in ALL contact martial arts would help to protect individuals from exploitation, and the reputation of the art. The problem is, as Sonofkanga points out, in an amateur sport or martial art that is self-regulating is that it is impossible to track athletes throughout their training periods as they do in professional sports, so testing purely at one event would not necessarily detect use of HGH or anabolics in earlier training.

[DKKC]

Yeap - the blood tests at the Regional were not for drug testing. And you could opt out of them if you wished.

[smoothsake]

If drug testing is needed for Kyokushin tournaments that would send a very negative message to participants in my opinion. We are a small community of martial artists and a Sensei/Senpai/Kohai relationship should be tight enough that if doping was going on it would be detected and stopped in the early stages, FAR before that misguided person stepped onto the mat.

[sonofkanga]

Originally Posted by smoothsake

If drug testing is needed for Kyokushin tournaments that would send a very negative message to participants in my opinion. We are a small community of martial artists and a Sensei/Senpai/Kohai relationship should be tight enough that if doping was going on it would be detected and stopped in the early stages, FAR before that misguided person stepped onto the mat.

Lovely sentiment.No names disclosed,but I know for a fact that in the end of the eighty's early ninety's at Honbu many used performance enhancing substances.Some of them were Sempai's and even regular class instructors.So you can understand that it wasn't the case.Some had guidance from there Sempai's in the subject.
PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE
Just because they instruct KK doesn't automatically put them on the moral high ground .It can be very seducing to people that explore there individual limits(all of us KK practitioners) to try anything that might give them that extra edge.
We push ourselves to the extremes on a daily basis,where is the line between various supplements that are acceptable to hard core substances?
We as a group tend to have double standards regarding this subject.

My belief is that the current state of affairs is the lesser of all evils.
As long as tournaments are amateur they should keep the no testing policy.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by sonofkanga

My belief is that the current state of affairs is the lesser of all evils.
As long as tournaments are amateur they should keep the no testing policy.

If it is accepted that most of the prohibited subtances are not only performance-enhancing, but harmful, do you think that we have any obligation to try to discourage use of the harmful ones we know about?

I completely accept that there will be people who systematically work around the rules, and you will never get them. But would a testing system send a message that we don't agree with drugs, that using drugs is cheating and dishonourable (especially if eg on a positive test, a yudansha could be busted back to kyu grade). Maybe it would stop people who are a bit equivocal, but think "what the heck, I've got nothing to lose".

[sonofkanga]

Originally Posted by seienchin

If it is accepted that most of the prohibited subtances are not only performance-enhancing, but harmful, do you think that we have any obligation to try to discourage use of the harmful ones we know about?

Some of the non prohibited substances may turn out to be just as harmful!
As people we have a moral obligation to point out the risks of everything of that kind.

I completely accept that there will be people who systematically work around the rules, and you will never get them. But would a testing system send a message that we don't agree with drugs, that using drugs is cheating and dishonourable (especially if eg on a positive test, a yudansha could be busted back to kyu grade). Maybe it would stop people who are a bit equivocal, but think "what the heck, I've got nothing to lose".

As i pointed out,because of the status of winners,and the importance for trainers to show champions in there stable,we should admit that drugs are here for good.I think it is wrong but it is a reality,and will stay with us for a long time.
If tests are introduced,they would only catch the ones the authorities wish to stop.Just take a look at the Olympic scene to get my point.
Sad state of affairs ,but my perspective.

[Nix]

In my opinion, the use of drugs is dishonourable cheating, and completelly against everything karate stands for. Additionally, it has nasty side effects. In Denmark, we have something called "Anti Doping Danmark". They reserve the right to show up at a tournament and take random tests. They are rarely or never at the amateur tournaments, but may show up at larger tournaments, and will always be there for the annual world championships in Ashihara Karate (which is held in Denmark every year).

[sonofkanga]

great thing.
wish it was the state of affairs world wide,even tournament testing can be circumvented,it takes money and expertise .
Right now it puts you at an unfair disadvantage with countries that have an eyes closed policy,or even actively help.
Nothing wrong with that,as long as you take it in to account.

Slightly off topic,did you see the Judo worlds in Brazil?
That is a shining example of how power and money corrupts a MA so badly that it hurts.

[Dent]

Osu!

Fter seeing parts of the latest UFC (Thank you members.), I started to think. Wandy came back with a good victory, but none of the size he had in Pride. The same thing has happened to other Pride fighters too. Makes one wonder about the claims of 'roid use over there...

I don't like to think about the guys that I've supported for years being all about the needle, but it's part and parcel of what we have to look for now.

With testing being so expensive, I wonder how many Karateka are starting to take this route? (I've seen a couple of guys who couldn't possibly have got all that size on the end of a fork alone...)

Osu!

[goldberg2310]

osu,

steroids are taken by fighters of all sports. boxing, thai boxing, karate ... watch them and you know what´s going on.

as far as i know an official wada test (urinal) is about 250 euros. at this time i don´t know, what kind of doping you can catch with this test. anyone knows?

[Dent]

Osu!

Thanks to Seienchin's suggestion, I have merged threads. Please continue to contribute!

Osu!

[mary222]

maybe i live on a pink cloud but i dont see why a kyokushin practictioner would choose steroide. (i know there a some im not that stupid) in other sports i can easylly understand the presure to be the best no mather what presure that can be name as $$$
like smoothsake i'm not sure that testing the fighter would be good for kyokushin image but in another hand the "users" need to be know and get the shame they deserve.

[Dent]

Osu!

Maybe I'm a bit twisted in this, but IMO, if these guys felt any shame, they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

I just want as level a playing field as possible, and there are certain short-term advantages to using that junk, so some will take that route.

It's amazing what you can find out there too:
“We all know. We all know when people fight. You can look at their nipples. You can just know when somebody’s blood doping. We all know,” BJ Penn

Now there was something I didn't know!

Osu!

[FutureProdigy]

Originally Posted by sonofkanga

Slightly off topic,did you see the Judo worlds in Brazil?
That is a shining example of how power and money corrupts a MA so badly that it hurts.

Could you expand on this?!

[mary222]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

Maybe I'm a bit twisted in this, but IMO, if these guys felt any shame, they wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

sadly enough i feel you are right
but sometimes their ego being so big (just like they bodies) public disgrace might be a powerfull strike... or at least, kyokushin being the way it is, the instructors(shihans, sensei, sempai, etc..) will make sure it does not damage their dojo's image.

[Hughes_Kyokushin_Oldham]

I know of many people using steroids, from Testex, Sustenon, Dianabol, HGH, Tribulon etc etc etc. I see them day in day out workin out in the gym, racking up 5-6 plates a side, chalking their hands, pulling that belt tight, and smashing out 8/10 reps of awesome form deadlifts. I kno of MMA Fighters who take steroids, because quite simply, taking steroids makes you bigger,faster, stronger. And to some people they want an easy way to this rather than training and sticking to the training. Now I am not saying that jabbing 10ml of Anabolic steroids in your butt will make you a World Champion athlete, but it is a helping hand (a big one at that) that many people don't think twice about.
These days steroids are being manufactured to be harder and harder to detect so yes I think mandatory testing in Competitions is a d