Important: Global Warming Concern

[Ultimate_Truth]

I watched Al Gore's movie on global warming last week. It was an interesting film, indeed.

As I've read from previous posts on this sticky, it seems that everyone here believes that global warming is a real threat and caused by humans. As such, I'll draw a lot of flak for the following comments, but here goes.

I don't believe that any kind of change in our current lifestyle will affect climate and / or weather conditions on this planet.

The reason? Pro global warming leaders like Al Gore claim that the cause in recent temperature rise on this planet has been caused by an increase in CO2 output by humans from consumption of fossil fuels by cars, aircraft, powerplants, etc. The problem is that even at our current levels of fossil fuel consumption, humans are only producing about 6-7% of the total CO2 enterning the atmosphere every year. In other words, 93-94% of the CO2 entering the atmosphere annually is natural! Most of the CO2 in our atmasphere comes from the oceans as well as decaying plant matter, bacteria and biological sources, and volcanic eruptions (please feel free to research this yourself is you don't believe me). Therefore, if atmospheric concentrations of CO2 do affect the global temperature and even if you could chop your CO2 emissions by 90% by 2050, as Al Gore suggests, the environemtal impact made by such a move would be negligable.

Another thing to remember is that the environment on this planet is always in flux. The temperature rises and falls, ocean currents vary, even the earth's own magnetic field changes directions for no apparent reason. When I was a kid, I can remember scientists and environmentalists claiming that we may be entering another ice age and their reasoning was the drop in global temperature over the past 40 years. Indeed the environment has changed and become warmer over my lifetime, but changes over the lifespan of a human (~75-80 years) is really too short to accurately gauge and predict global environmental changes. So while (slightly) warmer summers and winters may cause some alarm, they are not accurate indicators of imminent environmental threats.

For some more programs on global warming and the environment. I recommend the following.

Too Hot Not to Handle - this was an HBO documentary film with similar content to An Inconvenient Truth. A well produced program, but I felt that it ignores the other side of the debate.

The Great Global Warming Swindle - a BBC produced documentary which criticizes the concept of Global warming. Quite possibly the counter to An Inconvenient Truth. Highly recommended. You can watch it for free online at Powerline Blog's video archives.


Environmental Hysteria is Bullshit! From the Showtime series Penn & Teller: Bullshit! Great info-tainment show done by the rowdy, irreverant Las Vegas based comedy duo with very good arguments on subjects such as the death penalty, gun control, the war on drugs, etc. I got Showtime just so I could watch this show!

[anarki13]

Originally Posted by Azimuth

We should convince our governments to invest in green energy and not in more nuclear plants like they are planning for the moment.

Originally Posted by Aunty Ichigeki

From what I understand the only truly environmentally friendly source of power is nuclear power!

Azimuth- and Aunty- Sempai:
sadly as dangerous as it can be, nuclear energy if handled properly is the best current alternative for fossil fuels. saw a report about this just last night.. Nuclear energy provides 80% of France's needs.
i'm worried about nuclear waste. how/where they are getting rid of it..

[boldbhoy]

If we all make more of an effort, I'm sure we can make a difference. Let's try to be responsible and try to make others aware of what they too can do. Osu!

[Dim]

Originally Posted by anarki13

Azimuth- and Aunty- Sempai:
sadly as dangerous as it can be, nuclear energy if handled properly is the best current alternative for fossil fuels. saw a report about this just last night.. Nuclear energy provides 80% of France's needs.
i'm worried about nuclear waste. how/where they are getting rid of it..

Currently they are recycling it. Which sounds good on the surface, until you realise one of the by-products is weapons grade plutonium...from which any idiot with some dynamite can make a nuclear weapon from.

[Mindster]

I really admire your concern and i'm really greatfull that you bring it up to us, K4L.
I don't know about where you guys live, but here in São Paulo who have breathing problems (I do) in the last years can't breath 100% it's gettin' worst and worst... I thinking about moving, it's really sad what politicians and rich persons do to make more money and just forget about the WHOLE world's health.

[Satori]

I certainly think pollution is bad and causes a lot of problems like Mindster just pointed out, but I'm not convinced about this whole global warming thing. Ultimate_Truth raised some good points. I admire efforts to reduce pollution and I admit that we are doing damage to our planet, but the evidence to support climate change being a direct result of humanities carbon emissions is not convincing.

[dimi_108]

Here in Sydney we are definitely starting to see the effects of global warming take place. Our summer's are becoming cold and wet instead of warm and hot.
Winter is becoming warmer and not as cold as the past few years.
It's really weird. And scary too!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Aunty Ichigeki

Funny! In NZ we are nuclear free... it's got us into a lot of shmuk with America because we don't even let them bring their nuclear powered ships into our waters. We rely mostly on hydro for our power but it's not enough. I met a scientist who was contracted by NZ to research the feasability of wind power & he told me we'd need wind turbines on every sqare inch of the country if we wanted sufficient power to run our three main centres! What's left? Fossil fuels! From what I understand the only truly environmentally friendly source of power is nuclear power!

Technically you are right in what you say, Nuclear Power is the cleanest to produce, it does however have two distinct side effects 1) it warms to local seas and if not regulated causes problems to marine life etc 2) the waste is, as we all no toxic for a long time and dangerous beyond belief. There is a third major issue; the kaboom issue of if its miss handled it takes out entire countries.

There are ways to control all these issues but one big problem MAN, man will always (sadly) be corrupted by greed and therefore cut corners ergo Nuclear Power is the least safe option as we can not guarantee that it will be controlled by people who give a monkeys about anything other than lining there pockets. (Best reference book; animal farm, tells you all you need to know about the human condition).

I have worked for the last 5 years or so with renewable energies; heat pumps, solar etc and in my opinion the best advise I can give is do your bit -

Reuse is better than recycle and reduce is better than renew.

If we insulate homes to the height of modern standards, switch off rather than put on stand-by and only use what we need in reference to all natural resources we can all make a difference and a potentially sustainable environment. Always try to use all of any natural resource you take, use your own energy rather than any other (walk!).

Satori : I understand your point who knows if we are to blame or if its Sun spots, both sides have there pocketed scientists to tell us what to think but isn't it morally better to use less natural resources anyway? Even if it’s not affecting us, our kids, grand kids etc surely it is still our duty to only use what we need?

Re Hybrid cars - they normally average less MPG than a Diesel, cost more in environmental terms to make and those batteries are not going to be very eco friendly to dispose of. The answer is not always in the advertising slogan.

PS: I want it renamed to Climate Instability rather than Warming as this is a truer reflection of the effects of these issues, this summer was pants in the UK and I heard people saying ‘ Oh well so much for that Global Warming rubbish’ They are missing the point so badly it makes me want to Mawashi Geri the lot of them (bringing it back to Kyokushin!)

[Aunty Ichigeki]

I heard that the environmental impact of producing the batteries (cheaply) makes hybrids worse for the environment than a Hummer! I'm pleased to say we have swapped our old gas gussling vehicles for two extremely fuel efficient toyota's.... which we're having sign written for the dojo, I'll post pics when they're done.

I also found out that the plastic I was 'recycling' is shipped to China where it's turned into polarfleece in a coal fuelled factory... more harm than good. I've stopped recycling plastic!

I attended a seminar organised by a leasing company recently & learned that environmentally friendly commercial properties are becoming the standard in our city. The buildings are rated 1-5 & govt departments are required to reside in buildings rated 4-5 but this is also becoming the standard commercially as companies want to be seen to be green. They were basically putting the frighteners up people who owned property that wasn't green because green buildings will attract more tenants paying better rent. Even in older buildings it's pretty simple to reduce environmental impact & the costs are covered (via a reduced power bill for example) in as little as two years. Even if it's just about cleaner air, I hope this sort of initiative is viral.

[Spirit]

Well here is another fun fact...

Eating organic foods is best for the world as well.
The more organically grown foods we use and less of processed foods the lest pollution we produce.

You see processed foods use pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizers that all harm the air, water and soil, organic foods uses non of these chemicals.
10% organic grown equals 2 million cars off the road...

[tmd]

Like everything in life having an environmental conscience is about balance - I have picked up organic foods from local farm shops only to find they've travelled half way round the world to be there so if your local supplier is trying his best but no quite organic is it better to buy from him rather than food with enough air miles to get a cheap package deal to Corfu?

Processed food by its very nature or being processed in a factory and generally consumes more energy than it will give you as the additional processing leaves food end up devoid of nutrients.

If anyone has any good ideas maybe this thread could be used to spread good practices as much as pointing out the foibles of believing the press, even of this is fun it's not very productive and the less time we spend on line the less energy we're.....oh God you can only do so much!!!

[Spirit]

An idea ... only allowing 2 children pure married couple (world wide).
Continues growth of the biggest cause of pollution and toxins etc (Humans) on this planet need to be curved and reduced to a level that does not stress the planets recourses to collapses.

Yes I know, we all feel that we should have as many children as we feel and no one should controll this. I agree, but think of the planet as a bucket, half of it is filled with water (not drinkable) and forests, 1/4 filled with resources like clean air, food, an drinkable water and the the next 1/3 filled with people.
So since this adds up to more than the bucket can hold something ends up out of the bucket... humans being one of the weakest link in this primordial mix, what do you think will happen if it continues to grow like this.
Basically you are killing your great (or great, great) grandchildren.
So take a small step back or a long walk off a short pier.
To me it is better to take the step back and rethink, rather than move forward with horse blinder and ignorance.


This does sound crude, but when the planet can't sustain the population something has to give and since humans are the weakest like and the biggest cause of the problem, logically it is the most prudent move

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by tmd

Like everything in life having an environmental conscience is about balance - I have picked up organic foods from local farm shops only to find they've travelled half way round the world to be there so if your local supplier is trying his best but no quite organic is it better to buy from him rather than food with enough air miles to get a cheap package deal to Corfu?

Since both Organic and processes foods (this includes fruits, veggies etc) both travel from the same area or country (basic thinking usually organic is more localized, not always but..)
And organic does not harm the land (soil or air) nor does it hurt your body (toxins and cancer causing chemicals) it is only logical to go organic...

You can't buy and use growth hormones (steroids) and they (Congress in USA) are going after the Pro's for using them. They are telling us how harmful they are for us to use etc... Yet they are pumped into our foods by the tons???
How is that OK?!?

Would you consume food if someone put pesticides, federalizers, or herbicides into your drink or on your food?

YET it is sprayed, laid on, built into all fruits and veggies!

That to is OK?!?

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Since both Organic and processes foods (this includes fruits, veggies etc) both travel from the same area or country (basic thinking usually organic is more localized, not always but..)
And organic does not harm the land (soil or air) nor does it hurt your body (toxins and cancer causing chemicals) it is only logical to go organic...

You can't buy and use growth hormones (steroids) and they (Congress in USA) are going after the Pro's for using them. They are telling us how harmful they are for us to use etc... Yet they are pumped into our foods by the tons???
How is that OK?!?

Would you consume food if someone put pesticides, federalizers, or herbicides into your drink or on your food?

YET it is sprayed, laid on, built into all fruits and veggies!

That to is OK?!?

My point was; don't be blinded by the idea that all organic is good and all non organic is bad - organic is an ideal for growing food and does not consider the life cycle or true environmental impact of crop. NO I don't want pasteurises etc on my food but it is a balance would you rather eat organic food with 120000 air miles or locally grown stuff that s be grown ethically but not necessarily met the high levels of certification required for organic labelling.

I hate to say it but in my eyes that this is the kind of consumerism that leads to problems like global warming in the first place ‘so long as its all right for me, who cares of the knock on effect’.

Harmony, balance and a greater understanding are what are needed for us to survive on this ever-shrinking rock with its limited resources. If we only consider the issue from our own or any single point of view we are lost.

[Spirit]

I hate to say it but in my eyes that this is the kind of consumerism that leads to problems like global warming in the first place ‘so long as its all right for me, who cares of the knock on effect’

If each country could sustain their population with the foods grown in their own country, then yes that would be the ideal way.
But since that is not possible then organic even shipped hundreds or thousands of miles supersedes locally grown that are induced with chemicals. The chemical used have a far larger impact on the environment.

Sometime the obvious is not that obvious...
I support local grown if organic if not they are part of the problem not the solution.

The top 3 ground water pollutants, not so obvious, yet they are...
Hog farm
Poultry farm
Golf courses

[tmd]

Spirit, I understand and wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment but do fear happening with organics what we have seen with other crops such as rapeseed oil. These have positive uses in the West and are touted as save all products but some have carbon footprint which are greater than diesel fuel oil and as cash crops rob local communities of suffiicient resources to grow their own food.

If we can't grow enough food then maybe this adds weight to your max kids two argument of population control - it will never happen (I've three kids and they are all a blessing so lets hope not) but it is none the less something we have to be mindful of. Or maybe, given your list Golf should be banned? Or given the obesity crisis, hey we could eat less? Is it me or is there a common thread here of consumerisum

You're top three water pollutants? Is this a US study? I only ask because Hog farms aren’t such big industries here.

I still stand by what I said that air pollution from aviation fuel carting stuff across the world is harmful to the environment, problably not as much as ground water pollution from pesticides but a lot more avoidable, not sure on the sums but my point is that you can find goods that are ethically produced with little to no pesticides that are not classed as organic. The main thing here is Ethically - you can have non-ethically produced organics or non organics, to me the ethical bit holds more weight than the organic, so if the brought out organic Coke I still would not drink the stuff.

To be ethically aware is to be environmentally aware as our systems and actions need to be sustainable and accountable to me this is fundamentally where we need to be in regards to all things, be it energy use, food growth, transportation or our actions towards others. You cannot halt progress or take us back to the dark ages but there are limitations to that which is sustainable, we need to be in tune with the limitations of our resources but continue to grow and evolve.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by tmd

If we can't grow enough food then maybe this adds weight to your max kids two argument of population control - it will never happen (I've three kids and they are all a blessing so lets hope not) but it is none the less something we have to be mindful of. Or maybe, given your list Golf should be banned? Or given the obesity crisis, hey we could eat less?

Is it me or is there a common thread here of consumerisum

You're top three water pollutants? Is this a US study? I only ask because Hog farms aren’t such big industries here.

I still stand by what I said that air pollution from aviation fuel carting stuff across the world is harmful to the environment, problably not as much as ground water pollution from pesticides but a lot more avoidable, not sure on the sums but my point is that you can find goods that are ethically produced with little to no pesticides that are not classed as organic. The main thing here is Ethically - you can have non-ethically produced organics or non organics, to me the ethical bit holds more weight than the organic, so if the brought out organic Coke I still would not drink the stuff.

To be ethically aware is to be environmentally aware as our systems and actions need to be sustainable and accountable to me this is fundamentally where we need to be in regards to all things, be it energy use, food growth, transportation or our actions towards others. You cannot halt progress or take us back to the dark ages but there are limitations to that which is sustainable, we need to be in tune with the limitations of our resources but continue to grow and evolve

Well China did it,and I believe they have 1/3 the worlds popul?

Yes I agree, We are going down the same road just with different eyes I think, keep up the good work.

I believe that is USA and Canada as well. But this type of farming no matter where it is, is very highly toxin to ground water.

Well you may like to know that most fruits and veggies are shipped by boat which have huge Nitrogen generators that pump in the gas into the holding bays. Nitrogen gas puts them into a suspended state and they do not go bad and can be held in these bays for a very long time.

The example of the 3 top pollutants is used to open the eyes, I do not think anyone would see golf fairways as a top ground water polluting thing (besides the trees they needed to cut down to open the area up).
Other simple things is all the statements you get in the mail form the bank and C/C, utilities etc...... you're looking an 10's of millions of trees cut down just for statements????

The obvious is not always the obvious.

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Yes I agree, We are going down the same road just with different eyes I think, keep up the good work.

Will do, as I trust you will. If anyone, especially in the UK or Eire wants any info on green technologies such as heat