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10-19-2007, 01:40 PM
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#1
What really is a "traditional Dojo" anyway
Please note this is an edited version from another thread that most could not see...
What is/makes a "Traditional Dojo" a traditional dojo? After reading another thread, I felt the need to ask this question. Please read this as a question of looking to go beyond the standard understandings and try to come up with better VIEW POINTS, and not a bashing, augment, or a reason to ague!!! This is intended for true scholarly debating, nothing more and surly nothing less! I'm hoping that the old dogs (people with over 20 years of training will be the only ones posting back) ALSO>>> This post is in no way intended to hurt, insult or anyway cause poor views of someones culture or country. It you feel this way, I would hope that you re-read to see my intentions are to only spark a debate of the wording and meaning of "Traditional Dojo" and not to insult anyone heritage in no way, shape or form. I respect everyones ways and cultures, even if they don't reside in my opinions or ways. It is quite possible that mine does not in your so it is only far that I see you as an equal, not a person of bad intentions. An equal with different views that are yours and rightful so, Karma people, Karma.Now that the air is clear and we all can be on the same page, (we as equals) the question and it is a long one... First off I hope you can and will read all of the post before firing off a answer, as well read it a few times and sleep on it before answering. PLEASE give it a little thought first, remember this is a question of interest and not a post that should spark frustrated, or an answer shoot off from the hips type responses. The word “Traditional Dojo” always ruffles my feathers, what the hell is a Traditional Dojo anyway? Is it one that follows a Japanese way? What about Okinawan, Chinese, Thai or any other culture? Is it one that uses only Japanese (or any other language of the Asian rim) terminologies when teaching? Do you need poster or painting of Asian culture and saying, with a nice shrine and hardwood floors all the different equipment etc... What I ask! I do consider myself a “classical instructor” {not a traditional one} I'm really not overly concerned if I know the correct non-English terms (no disrespect), if I remember them I'll use them, or if I know them I'll use them, If I'm taught them and understand them OK, fine, I'll use them. But it does not take away from my knowledge, experiences, sweat and blood, years etc...that I have put into training, in anyway shape or form if I don't know them! Yes it does add to the drama or misteak of it all, doesn't it. But the terminologies (I'll be using the word terms) does not add to anything other than the history of one culture (and not the original culture of Karate to boot). So why follow the cultures ways if they (the culture) is not the founding culture of the Way???? If I teach how to do the techniques to the fullest, to each and every student how is it any different (traditional) than someone who does a lesser job {or equal job} than I but yet knows all the terms; and all, etc… a full blown culture effect in the dojo.? It is the Art of Empty Hands that we teach is it not, not the art of language and culture?? Does or can a non-Japanese, Chinese, or Okinawan person of rank, teach a traditional dojo? If seeing it this way, what words/terms I use to teach, make or have any negative bearing on the outcome of the knowledge I pass on to each student (outside taking away the culture of one country that 99.9% Will never see or go to). Does this take away from teaching or learning the Art? So what is or makes a Traditional Dojo, the strictness, the structure, and the workout, all of it, more??? WHAT? Then what is the basic standard that one must do to make their Dojo a Traditional one? I've never read nor see or heard of any guidelines or any particular ways that makes one, {discounting the bowing, shrine, OSU, history} {but do they really count???} have you and if you have are they stories (old wifes tails) or are they just traditions within your group, dojo, or Sensei? This is what I've come to believe.... Nothing makes it a Traditional Dojo, it is not a thing, it is a mindset. What works for me as Traditional/Classical may make it non-Traditional or more Traditional than what you think, know or understand, would that not be true. Yes I do use the word Mcdojo for those places that bring in people based on marketing and sales and don't teach up to my standards or the standards of the system I have come to understand and learn. BUT that does not make me correct! It just makes me a person who is expressing their views and opinions. TAKE the JKA, they are totally focused on competition, nothing more nothing less. They are the group who we suppose to look at as the traditional followers of the fore fathers (since I think their was more than one I will not mention the "F" name). But still the group that all Karate styles must go to for rank in Japan {JKA}, do not or rarely teach Kihons, just focus on competition kumite and kata??? So since they are the fore-front of Traditional Dojo's are they what we are to follow? What about you or the next guy or girl? What about the offshoots who have taken the step back to the more linear or sabaki ways. Are they now more traditional than the original "traditional" style that they offshoots from. They are looking at or training in ways that are more directly related to the way it was taught 100 or more years ago? What about the old and new ... Japanese Dai Nippon Budoku Kai and their hand in all of this??? Karate or better yet empty hand fighting is far older than anything remotely known as Karate or Martial Arts today, so by using the terms or references set forth by any culture is non traditional already. So how can one set a standard for traditional? If I find/use a thing or way of doing this or that and have been doing it for 30 years or more, and it becomes a tradition in my dojo, does that make it a tradition since several generations of my yudansha know it that way and now teach it that way? Like X-Mas, it was set-up for one thing, became another, and out of these 2 things it is suppose to represent neither have a true meaning... But what if that way is disturbing or non functional to you, but has been use-full and not/for me, and I see it as traditional and you see it as foolish, what then??? How does one resolve who is correct, who do we go to (if both are from different styles and cultures?) So, not in closing, but leaving it open at this point for input, What is 1) Traditional Dojo, 2) how does it become one, 3) how or who determines what is correct or traditional or not? Can you touch on all 3 of these questions and what or how you feel about this without getting personal or mad about the question, since it is an open ended question. 
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10-19-2007, 08:15 PM
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#2
very good post. a bit long to give a reply to straight away, though.
Basically, I agree that there are about as many takes on what constitutes a "trad karate style" as there are people who cares about it. To me, trad karate basically means karate that still does traditional kata and focus on kihon.
__________________
-- There are two secrets for success in life: 1. Dont tell anyone everything you know. 2.
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10-19-2007, 09:57 PM
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#3
To me, keeping tradition is following the ways of previous generations and passing it on as knowledge.
Kyokushin Karate falls somewhere between sport and combat training. Hardly traditional compared to older styles of karate. But when you see how Kyokushin Karate has a standardized set of techniques and procedures of engagement; and then watch fighters like Tsukamoto or Komiyama, you wonder whether or not they're actually following "traditional Kyokushin."
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Kyokushin Karate of Los Angeles "Better a patient man than a warrior, a man who controls his temper than one who takes the city." -Proverbs 16:32 "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived, what God has prepared for those who love Him." -1 Corinthians 2:9
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10-19-2007, 10:12 PM
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#4
Quote:
 I'm barely overy 20 years of age (when I mean barely i mean 7 years over) let alone 20 years of training!
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10-19-2007, 10:59 PM
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#5
From a point of view of a beginner, when I hear the words "Traditional Dojo" it makes me think the dojo follows the way Japanese teaches.(Especially when kyokushin was born.) However I think it is almost impossible to find a real traditional dojo like Mas Oyama used to teach (Very hard training and conditioning) as kids are involved, and a lot of people come to train for fitness.
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Team Kyokushin4life ~ nzproud 
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10-20-2007, 01:30 PM
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#6
Thanks for your post...
Marc, if it is only 5 then 5 posts will be had. It is not about quantity but about time spent on "possible" contemplating this as one gets older, thats all. I'm looking to discuss with those who have and had a similar life and experiences (time spent etc) in Karate as I. At 27 Marc, I was a Yondan, so how I see (seen) Karate at your age was much different that you see it now as a Kyu rank, do to were I was in training, I also had a dojo at that age as well. Feels, I think you missed the point since Tradition is the question at hand. Who is to say that what was past on from previous generations is traditional? This is the essences of the question. Ksan, yes but Kyokushin is a middle generation style so it would really not be seen as a break out traditional style i.e. shorin ryu, goju, wado ryu, kempo and the like or even better white crane, Chinese boxing and older. How far back and how close to the original does make one dojo who teaches the style (and not the founders way)???? make it traditional. I can't agree with you on the concept of not finding a dojo that follows a set way of teaching that is very consistent from the days of the founder(s) of said style... Again this is why I'm looking for old dogs to weight in on this. Nothing wrong with your replays, just not the direction I would like to see this thread go.. BUT I would like to hear your views (younger crowd) via PM if you would be so kind!!! Just to keep the thread on track OK, Thank You for understanding. OR we could do a sub thread >>> Beginners views and a 2nd thread after training for 2 + years what do you see what means as traditional dojo is??? How about that compromise guys??? this way everyone can weigh in on it at their level of thinking to experience, is that fair? I would be very intrested in your thoughts and I bet would learn a lot from each of you as well!
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10-20-2007, 01:32 PM
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#7
Martin, look forward to your thoughts after you had a chance to think about this thread for a bit of time!!!
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10-20-2007, 01:42 PM
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#8
This was seienchin's reply to this thread that I first posted it in a thread most of you can't get.
It was a very good post and thought that you all would like to read it, since most of her posts are well read and poignant I've been chewing on this (forgive the artistic extension of metaphor) for a day or so, and here is my answer. I don't think there is any one thing that makes a dojo "traditional", and I definitely don't think it matters what language techniques are labelled in. (although one of the nice things about Japanese instructions is that you an train anywhere, and still know what you are being asked to do - more or less). Firstly - I'd like to reflect on the fact that it might not matter. Traditional does not mean good. Non-traditional does not mean bad. Nor vice versa. Each type of dojo will have students whose needs it meets at partcular point in their deveopment. Secondly - I think a "traditional"dojo is one where the Sensei take the overall development of his/her students into account, recognising their Art as a way to develop the whole person. It is a dojo where tournaments are a tool on the journey to enlightenment, not an end to themselves. It is a dojo where comparing oneself with others is discouraged, but comparing oneself with one's goals and aspirations is encouraged. It is a dojo where effort and discipline are valued more than achievment without either. It is a dojo that knows and respects the old ways of training, and may use them. But I think a dojo can still be "traditional" even if students are not being hit over the head with a shinai. It is a dojo that honours our forbears, recognising that we have built our current position on the accumulate knowledge of many before us. It s a dojo that embodies the elements of the dojo kun and builds moral, restrained, cultured, non-violent individuals. IF they do all this while naming techniques in swahili or urdu instead of japanese, and while dressed in pink/purple spotty gi's, then I think they are still traditional! (if somewhat eccentric). Last edited by seienchin : 10-18-2007 at 06:46 AM Last edited by Spirit; 10-22-2007 at 12:21 PM.
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10-20-2007, 01:50 PM
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#9
I got into a similar debate on Danzan ryu not being traditional jujutsu a few days back on another forum. To koryu purists, no Karate style is really "traditional", unless you meant traditional gendai budo. Does it really matter if it's traditional? If you like it, are getting a good work out, learning some decent self defense and so on. I don't think just doing good kihon and kata constitutes as being traditional when I have met many people that do kata that know hardly any bunkai.
I could go back and forth on this subject for a long time with no definitive answer on what "traditional" karate exists, if any exist. In my opinion, if I was to call a few styles "traditional", they would be ryeiu ryu, pangai noon/uechi ryu, some of the goju, some of the shito, and some of the shorin. Then again, to me, if you were to call any Karate "traditional", it would be more of an Okinawan flavor. Then again, it's just my opinion. Just a funny thing to throw out there, one arguer on Danzan ryu being traditional in my debate made a point along the lines of it being traditional because the founder was a Japanese(Hawaiian citizen) man. There is a happy medium in being practical, and being traditional. Spending years in the dojo having a great neko ashi dachi and shuto uke is nice but what happens when the person that spent 6 months learning Muay Thai defeats that person with a right cross? By the way, I haven't really ever trained in "traditional" karate, I've trained in more Japanese flavors of shito ryu but was fortunate to learn some of the ryeiu ryu kata at one time. So my post isn't some "flaming" karate post, I love karate. However, I think anybody that has experience in some good Karate can tell if a dojo is a mcdojo or a karate dojo. I think it's safe to say that there is real karate, and fake karate, albeit being traditional or not.
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who you choose to be around you, lets you know who you are
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10-21-2007, 02:00 PM
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#10
EDIT: Deleted the repost - I totally missed that Spirit had brought it across already. Sorry everybody
Spirit-san - I'd really like to hear from some students on this too, so start that other thread you mentioned (or else, open this one up if we can't get the old dogs to growl!)... 
__________________
Wisdom prevents mistakes. But you have to make mistakes to get the wisdom. 
Last edited by seienchin; 10-26-2007 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Oops going blind.
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10-22-2007, 05:49 AM
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#11
My response will be a little more basic. I regularly describe my dojo as Traditional.
1) I follow the sylabus of Kyokushinkai in the same manner as I was taught, which is the same way as my Shihan was taught by Sosai, with as little variance as possible. 2) Beleive it or not, compared to the majority of Karate dojo's in my area, my kyokushin training is considered traditional because I teach Kihon, Kata and Kumite using bunkai and ido-gekko. I teach using Japanese commandes, instructions and terminology (I am continuously amazed when a student from a "big" local dojo comes in and says that they learned everything in English. I even used to rent from another school where their senior sensei learned how to count in Japanse for the first time by watching me teach my classes). I train harder then the other dojo's (longer class, much more physically and mentally demanding, very diciplined, good amount of contact etc.). I guess that what I am saying is that I use the word Traditional to differentiate my dojo from those around me (my business "competitors") in comparison to their practices, manner of teaching and adherance to Japanese culture in regards to Karate instruction. Unfortunately I only have "18 years of experience in Kyokushinkai" so I hope that my input still counts 
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10-27-2007, 05:23 AM
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#12
To me,the main theme of tradition in karate in general is change.A continuous search for the perfection of technique and training,retaining the useful discarding the useless.
Tradition is something handed down over many generations.In karate ,true karate, the only tradition is dynamic change. Traditional Karate is an oxymoron,as karate as we know it started in the thirties of the 20th century.Not long enough for traditions to set in.
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munchies....
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10-27-2007, 01:29 PM
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#13
Quote:
Karate as we know it though started in the 19th century and evolved into what we now see it a sport and very limited as a effort to save ones lifestyle. Tradition is such a general phrase or label, often what people "think" is tradition is just wishful thinking that they where taught something with lineage Seienchin, I really don't think it would be best if I open this up to those with limited years of contemplation on this matter. I believe {desire} it is best to discuss this matter with those who had a chance to evolve within the Art and be able to or have been able to, go through many believes and changes. By limiting it to those who have gone through this within their time in Karate it will limit the assumed assumptions of Traditional and open it up to discussions with those who have years to work on it, within it and change it. It would become a debate based on a few years 1-10, versus educated debate based on 15-30 years of actual evolving within, does that make sense?!? As for me starting the other thread, I believe that it would be best for one of the mudansha to do so, since in all sincerity, I am not interested in the assumed assumptions and would be shallow thread on my part. powerof0ne as for Karate being Budo, I just don't walk down that path at all. Karate is [and no matter how you color it, paint it or even dress it up, is and always was been (since brought into Japan)] a sport, and sports can not be Budo! I guess if you wish to use the term Gendai Budo ( Modern Budo) then you can if you wish, but that would limit the Traditional aspect of it, would it not? An since Gendai Budo is directed to the Judo, Aikido, Karate, Kendo etc and are not spiritual disciplines whose ultimate goal, achieved through rigorous and systematic physical training in the Zen sense. YES their IS many things that are similar within the 2 disciplines, yet they also are very far apart in ideologies, theories and ultimate goals. This is often the confusions and why people "think" Karate is Budo, and since 99.9% who train in M/A don't even know what true Budo or Zen {or what Budo or Zen} is, then the assumption of what Budo/Zen is, becomes real and it is easy to understand why "WE" would think and understand it as we do now. OR just because it is written in a few books by a few Sensei's then it considered true and correct??? how is that so? Now see, this is a great discussion on something that has touched us for decades and I'm sure we have all questioned it several times within those years of training or when we are faced with someone who has made us think in depth about or past instructors or put our past training in question. Last edited by Spirit; 10-28-2007 at 02:07 PM.
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10-29-2007, 03:41 PM
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#14
Thank you Marc Sensai,have been musing this post over the weekend.
Most equate "traditional" with the idea of -as close to Japanese culture as possible. Have the proper layout-Shinzen,picture of founder,wooden name pegs for yudansha,Taiko drum, using japanese terminology ,and so on. It is an ideal,usually false of how a dojo should look like. and is based on outward appearance. I assume that the theme of this post is about something else. the spirit,the essence,the heart of things-KOKORO. WHAT IS THE BASIC UNDERLINING THEME THAT IS COMMON TO ALL KYOKUSHIN STUDENTS? I don't have an answer beyond this:I know it when i see it. Anyone?
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munchies....
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12-05-2007, 05:12 PM
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#15
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I believe the purpose of any tradition is to continue a good intention. For example, Thanksgiving is a big tradition in the united states, a little less popular in Canada. However there are Canadians that believe in this traditional occasion and it's a chance for them to reflect on the original story behind it. As a result, the continual tradition is a time to reflect, understand and appreciate. What makes this tradition "authentic" is not what language you speak, or the place you celebrate, but the symbols and actions that make it up. The most important thing in this tradition is the fact that you demonstrate your thanks during a time of giving. To understand what makes karate traditional is not how your dojo looks like, but rather what and how you teach karate. I believe that the essence of karate lies on the values it brings to you through rigorous training. No matter how many years of experience you have, you still have much more to learn. In my opinion using Japanese terms enhances the learning experience for the students, and at the same time keeps my mental skills in check. What constitutes a traditional dojo vs non-traditional: 1) kihon-waza (basic techniques) 2) Ido-Geiko (moving basics) 3) kata (bunkai -- following a standard) 4) kumite (following rules of kumite, i.e. no grappling, etc). 5) Discipline,respect, protocols in class ... Everyone in uniforms and barefoot, lined up, don't speak in class unless spoken to. Responding Osu! Performing techniques with Kia! 6) Following a system of belt grading Using Japanese terms makes it more authentic and creates a mindset. Is it necessary to speak Japanese in order to classify your dojo as 'traditional', probably not. However if you don't even count in Japanese, and don't use at least the simple terms like chudan tsuki, or mae-geri, then it may be something to consider changing in your dojo. My last point is evolution. Evolving can happen while still keeping tradition. Were there any new techniques that were developed since karate was developed. The answer is yes. However we still stuck to tradition in order to preserve the original intention that karate was developed for. Train hard for yourself and for your dojo. OSU!
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12-05-2007, 07:32 PM
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#16
Tansei - great post!. Particularly considering this is your first outside the Intro forum! Thanks for putting so much effort into a response.
__________________
Wisdom prevents mistakes. But you have to make mistakes to get the wisdom.
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12-06-2007, 02:05 PM
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