Another Ashihara karate question

[jolut]

Yes, there is judo in Enshin. Yoko Niomiya is also a judoka.
If we talk about systems, grading syllabus and so on, the really big difference between Kyokushin and Ashihara is the kata.
A Ashihara kata is really a set of techniques for controling the opponent. And for example in Ashihara grading fights, you can pull, throw and grab to control the opponent (and of course kick and punch ).
The limit described in earlier posts are limited to tournaments.
Remember that, in Japan, they dont compete in general. Ashihara karate is concidered as a street fighting system.
Hideyuki Ashihara has written 3 books as manuals and 2 of them are translated to english. The third book (actually no 2 in the series) is named 'street fight'.
In japanese, More fighting karate is no 1 and Fighting karate is no 3 if a remember correctly.
Ashihara translated no 3 to english before no 1. It is more fighting oriented and he felt that it would sell better. I bought my copy in LA 1987 and shortly after that, you could only find the book in Japan

[enrico-rogge]

I'm not agree with the opinion that Ashihara Karate is the same as Kyokushin, with the only differences in Turnement-Rules and the throwing of the opponent.

The sense of the Sabaki-Methode is only to go out of the straight line and get minimal damage and make from that position maximal damage. The repertoire of karate-techniks are reduced to real fighting-techniks. If a fighter does good sabaki he don't needs any blocking. He can do conter directly.

The throwing is only a training-method. Kancho sais: If you throw somebody, he can get up again. It means: If the trainer does everytime a punsh ore a kick to his students when they make mistakes, he lose them. It is no part of the sabaki-method it is a product of the experiences of an old Sensei.

[Nix]

That is true, Sempai Enrico. Although Ashihara is similar to Kyokushin, it differs in the Sabaki, which is the core in Ashihara Karate.

In kumite, I have noticed that a Kyokushin-fighter tends to move linear, and rely on raw strenght and condition. The Ashihara-fighter will more often attempt to move around the opponent, in order to place himself in a better position than him, or to catch him off-balance.

The Sabaki is also clear in the Ashihara kata, which is based on real-fighting combinations, rather than the aestethic, traditional Kyokushin kata.

By the way, congratulations on winning the Sabaki Challenge Spirit 2007!

[kyokushin4life]

Osu! I have a question for those who practice Ashihara Karate.
What's the largest event/tournament in Ashihara Karate? What's the name of it? What are other large competitions? I'm trying to gather results. Osu.

[Nix]

Osu!

The Sabaki Challenge Spirit is considered the Ashihara Karate World Championships. It is held in Viborg, Denmark, every year around easter (Holy Saturday), and Kancho Ashihara himself honours us with his presence from time to time. You can read read more at ..:: Sabaki Challenge Spirit ::.. , where previous results are also listed. Unfortunatelly, the site has not been updated since 2003, and I do not know any other sites with the results. Should you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

Osu!

~ Nix

[Azimuth]

The Results are updated till this years results see this thread
http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums...s-results.html

[Dobbersky]

Sensei, Sempai and Kohai.

We have seen many programmes on TV regards Kyokushin recently and still my question remains unanswered.

Someone told me from another forum I am a member of, that the Ashihara Kata are similar to the Kyokushin Advanced Kata (I believe it is the Kata Exclusive to Kyokushin that they mean).

I wonder if anyone would be able to agree, disagree or confirm, also if there was a link, that I could view these advanced kata, that would be great.

Also would someone be able to say which Ashihara Kata is a descendant of which Kyokushin Kata etc.

Many Thanks

Osu

[jolut]

As I understand there is no kata in Kyokushin that looks as the Ashihara kata. I can't see any connection at all when I look at the Ashihara kata. And yes; I have been done "all" of the katas in Kyokushin and Ashihara.

[Nix]

I'm with jolut on this one. Ashihara only have the practical kata, always following the same pattern, and directly applicable to bunkai or kumite, whereas Kyokushin kata are more traditional. If someone with a deeper Kyokushin-knowledge knows otherwise, feel free to correct me.

[Dent]

Osu! Nix,

Originally Posted by Nix

I'm with jolut on this one. Ashihara only have the practical kata, always following the same pattern, and directly applicable to bunkai or kumite, whereas Kyokushin kata are more traditional. If someone with a deeper Kyokushin-knowledge knows otherwise, feel free to correct me.

I hope we're all doing practical Kata. IMO, Kata without Bunkai is dance. I think that different seniors just had different perspectives on Kata, and I appreciate them all.

Osu!

[Nix]

Dent,

Have no fear, I'm not looking for trouble by dissing the traditional kata. They probably have their uses, but with "practical kata" I mean that the combinations in the kata can be directly applied against an opponent in kumite or sabaki.

See Jissen no Kata sono Ichi with bunkai (poor filming, but it's a fun kata to do).

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu! Nix,

No fear, I'm not being picky, just hoping that all Kata are taught in such a way as to make them practical for specific circumstances.

I've trained with Ninomiya Kancho of Enshin, and with Narker Kaicho of AKI, and appreciate what their Kata has to offer. I am also a committed fan of the Bunkai of Higaonna Shihan and Laubscher Shihan of the IOGKF.

If the Bunkai is simultaneously able to teach practical techniques, and make the Kata come alive, then it has my vote!

Osu!

[seienchin]

I think it is important to remember that kata is not just for bunkai - and one of the benefits of traditional kata is that the extreme stances and large movements develop muscular strength.

I have had large periods of time when I have not been able to train in a dojo, and kata has been the mainstay of my personal training (along with ido kihon and bag work)...I must confess to finding it a bit hard to work on standing kihon alone...

Also, when rehabbing after injury, the slow and controlled movements of traditional kata, whilst demanding prolonged muscle contraction, are an excellent stepping stone to resumed function.

so I have an intermediate position- I won't expect there to be bunkai for every bit of a kata, but I do agree with dent that we could get the muscle strength stuff from a dance class.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by seienchin

I think it is important to remember that kata is not just for bunkai - and one of the benefits of traditional kata is that the extreme stances and large movements develop muscular strength.

I have had large periods of time when I have not been able to train in a dojo, and kata has been the mainstay of my personal training (along with ido kihon and bag work)...I must confess to finding it a bit hard to work on standing kihon alone...

Also, when rehabbing after injury, the slow and controlled movements of traditional kata, whilst demanding prolonged muscle contraction, are an excellent stepping stone to resumed function.

so I have an intermediate position- I won't expect there to be bunkai for every bit of a kata, but I do agree with dent that we could get the muscle strength stuff from a dance class.

Now, I'm very different in this. If I don't have at least one concrete application for the movement or sequence, I can't remember it.

I have been shown some of the Kata dozens and dozens of times. Practiced them with very forgiving and kind instructors, but goldfish have better memories.

(In my defense, I'm working with a stick in the dirt, while just about everyone else is running the latest software on top quality hardware. )

So with some of the Kata, I'm just not even in the game. Ura? Like they say here in Jersey, "Faggedaboudit!"

Osu!

[Markku]

I have heard of some old books describing these katas in kyokushin. Not the same as in ashihara but practised with partner and called kumite kata. No idea what the books are called or anything whatsoever.

What I'm really looking forward in my shorin-ryu training is the Naifanchi (that's Tekki in kyokushin right?) katas. I have trained some of the Naifanchi bunkai and some of them seem to have the same round footwork that you find in Ashihara katas (positions 1 & 2). One example would be the can opener with round step to the side to unbalance the opponent. The kata itself is very simple, just sidesteps, but in seibukan's bunkai (I don't know if it's the same in other schools) the footwork is pretty interesting from Ashihara point of view.

Still not enough posts for links. Search the YouTube with "Matsubayashi Ryu - Naihanchi Shodan" for Naifanchi kata.

[Dobbersky]

All,

We're getting some really good feedback from everyone I just looking at the source as to where the Ashihara Kata were formed by someone who had only practiced Kyokushin which predominately uses the Pinan Kata etc which are traditional. I am wondering if it is an amalgamation of the Ippon/Oyon Kumite etc that are the basis of the Ashihara Kata, namely as I plan to merge all the Ippons etc that I practice within My Wado Ryu to form 2-4 kata (really as a way to practice them when I don't have a partner)

As I am originally a Muay Thai Practitioner I can see many techniques from the kata, which stipulate some of the combinations that many of the Muay Thai schools use, but I don't think Ashihara O Sensei practiced Muay Thai. I know that some Aikido Sensei with regards to the Nage Kata, using Irimi and Tenkan movements in the kata, advised him.

I wonder if any senior AshiharaKa would be able to answer these further questions

Osu

[Nix]

Dobbersky,

Ashihara Karate was founded by Kancho Hideyuki Ashihara. Kancho were one of Sosai Oyama's students, and more importantly one of the greatest Kyokushin teachers of the time. He saw where Kyokushin could evolve into a more realistic way of karate, however there was no room for Kancho's own ideas in Kyokushin. He thereafter formed NIKO - 'New International Karate Organization - Ashihara Karate Kai-kan'.

Ashihara did not only study Kyokushin, but also other forms of martial arts (such as judo), which he worked into what he believed to be more realistic, more combat-oriented, a more down to earth way of fighting - the Sabaki Method. With this, it is no longer a matter of how strong you are, but to use circular motions to turn the attackers force against himself. This of course manifests itself in the Ashihara kata.

This is why Kyokushin and Ashihara are very similar in many things, but also have differences in especially kata. They are much like siblings. I hope this answers your question.

Osu!

[Dobbersky]

Osu Sensei Nix,

I thank you for your excellent description on how the Ashihara Kata were formed.

I have further questions to ask on that respect.

I wonder especially with the Kumite Kata 1-5, why so many, from what I can see they are virtually the same apart from various additions to the techniques etc.

Could one Hybrid one not be formed to hold all the various techniques into one Kumite kata?

Also as I've worked allot with Sabaki, I can now see a different outlook to the traditional Kata that I practice in Wado Ryu. It’s quite amazing but can't see why Naihanchi (Tekki Shodan) Bassai and Seichan (Hangetsu) are not part of the syllabus especially when viewed from a Sabaki basis.

[olyckan]

OSU! There is one or two kata in ashihara that is slightly similar performed as a kyokushin kata. This is Sanchin no kata (1 dan) and Tensho no kata (3d dan). These kata focuses on breathing and ibuki and isnt done with a uke. I my self havent done em yet but I have seen my sensei do them as he was training for his 3 dan. I do not know how often it is that these katas are checked during grading but they are there and they reminds us of our origin (Kyokushin).