What's in a name Enshin vs. Judo

[ojgsxr6]

I posted this in another forum and I got a couple of good replies but I 'd like another perspective.

I know there aren't many people who pratice Enshin on this planet let alone the board, but I'm sure I may find an answer here.

In the Enshin curriculum there are a decent amount of throws Ura Nage, Tsuri Komi Nage etc. Now, I assume they would be pulled straight from Judo seeing as the founder, Joko Ninoiya, was a Judo blackbelt. But the Enshin names for the throws are all different from the Judo names, some slightly sn some are completely different. For example in Enshin:Ura Nage -> Judo:Osoto Gari, Enshin:Tsuri Komi Nage -> Judo Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi, Enshin:Soto Gake -> Judo:Kosoto Gake.

So my question is: Why the different names? I know that the names don't really mean anything as far as effectivenees goes but, I just find it really weird that the names would be different.

Judo
http://judoinfo.com/images/animation...rikomiashi.htm

http://judoinfo.com/images/animation...kosotogake.htm

Enshin
http://enshin.com/technique.php

http://enshin.com/technique/soto.html

http://enshin.com/technique/tsuricounter.html
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[Decadent~!]

The Osoto Gari is the same in enshin and Judo. The Uranage is a reverse back throw like a pro wrestling backdrop suplex.

[kyofighter]

I practiced enshin with Kancho Ninomiya for about eight months as a guest at hombu and from my understanding there is very little difference beetween enshin and ashihara - when I asked Mike Ninomiya (kancho's son) if there is a difference he wasn't able to tell me - anyway , maybe the name changes are from ashihara - when Ninomiya left kyokushin he joined ashihara for a while ...

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! ojgsxr6,

I realise this is an old thread but I've just joined the board. The Enshin throws are similar to judo throws with two main differences: First, the grip(s) can only be done from one side of the body, and second the purpose of the throw is to put the opponent in a controlled position for a follow up technique, rather than 'just' throwing. My knowledge of judo is limited, but an ippon score of a full throw onto the back may not be best for karate tournaments where a follow up technique is required.

I had to smile at the comment about not many people practising Enshin. Doesn't this show anything? The fact that Kancho asks prospective branch chiefs to go to Denver to train with him, and be prepared to start anew, is a positive thing as far as I can see. I'm sure he could have many more dojo if he was willing to compromise, but then others would doubtless question their quality and also his personal integrity.

In my previous group I was charged with helping an instructor that joined via a very dubious background. He kept his belt and freely admitted joining Kyokushin was part of his business plan. He also continued to teach his former style. Surely no-one could argue that is a better system, despite it increasing the membership numbers. Since joining Enshin I have had many UK instructors inquiring, but few prepared to step out of their comfort zone. I'm all for keeping standards and expectations high myself. If that stops people joining who just want to exchange badges and/or keep their high grades; so be it!

Osu! Kyofighter,

As previously mentioned, there are many technical differences between Enshin and Ashihara, but I do understand why Mike wouldn't really bother trying to explain them in minutiae, especially if you were training as a guest. I know from conversations with Ashihara instructors that have changed to Enshin that although some things are very easy to adopt straight away, other things took a while to adjust as Kancho wants them. How does one explain an evolutionary process? For example: If we look at Kyokushin from the 70's to the present (certainly in the UK) it's like a different style in many ways. It would be difficult to define many of the differences though, as they just evolved rather than being decided upon.

Rugby League and Rugby Union look alike to my wife, and I've long ago given up trying to explain the differences to her. It doesn't stop them both being a very tough game!

Gary

[Dobbersky]

Sempai Kyofighter,

With Respect, 8 months training isn't enough to make a decision on a style, Take Bruce Tegner, he did the same and managed to write a book on every style he trained in.

I am an Ashihara Instructor and I have attended various Seminars with Kancho Ninomiya. And I can definately say there are many differences between the styles, the same way the are differences between Kyokushin and Seidokan although to an outsider there would be none.

The Stream of Ashihara I study is more akin to Kyokushin/Muay Thai/Aikido Mix where as Enshin has more influence of Judo, (Kancho being a Judo Champ before coming over to Kyokushin - being taught by Ashihara O Sensei (who was originally taught by Oyamas O Sensei at the original Kyokushin Honbu)).

Hope this helps clear up a few discrepancies.

In Karate, United we stand

Osu!!!

[hasbeen]

OSU GARY !!

i enjoyed reading that post,i agree kyokushin is different to that practiced in the 70`s and your rugby analogy is a classic!!!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Hasbeen,

Thanks for that! Sign me up for the old fogies club. Feel like a dinosaur on here.

Gary

[hasbeen]

GARY !!

i`m starting to feel a bit inferior in this old fogies club.

seienchin and spirit are also fellow members, it`s well worth having a look at their input.

[Bloke]

How old do you have to be to be an old fogie?

I love the rugby analogy too. Have you explained yet about the leagues in Rugby Union? Went greyer that day I can tell you.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by Bloke

How old do you have to be to be an old fogie?

I love the rugby analogy too. Have you explained yet about the leagues in Rugby Union? Went greyer that day I can tell you.

i think you have all the qualifications bloke?

[Bloke]

Woo Hoo

No wait - im not sure I should be happy about that.

[Musha]

Originally Posted by Dobbersky

(Kancho being a Judo Champ before coming over to Kyokushin - being taught by Ashihara O Sensei (who was originally taught by Oyamas O Sensei at the original Kyokushin Honbu)).

According to Joko Ninomiya's biography, he trained Judo primarily in high school and stopped after graduation. I think you are talking of different Ninomiya in Judo.

[Dobbersky]

Musha-san

Thank you for correcting me.

If that's what Kancho's Bigraphy state's, note I got this information 3rd hand or so and as you know sometimes truths get innocently stretched. It was not intentional to give wrong information.

I am sure I am correct to state he was 1978 all Japan Karate Champ though

[MilkManX]

Originally Posted by Musha

According to Joko Ninomiya's biography, he trained Judo primarily in high school and stopped after graduation. I think you are talking of different Ninomiya in Judo.

He still won alot of Judo High School and Regional Tournaments.

He stopped Judo when he saw Ashihara Sensei training. That had him switch to Kyokushin.

[Musha]

Originally Posted by Dobbersky

Musha-san

Thank you for correcting me.

If that's what Kancho's Bigraphy state's, note I got this information 3rd hand or so and as you know sometimes truths get innocently stretched. It was not intentional to give wrong information.

I am sure I am correct to state he was 1978 all Japan Karate Champ though

Not at all. He is a legend and I'd like to learn more about him as well.