Ashihara question

[Azimuth]

My Sensei converted from Kyokushin to Ashihara .
It took him 3 years of travelling up and down to Denmark to perfect his kata's and sabaki techniques.
He had to organize an international event ( The first Diamond Cup ) , and he had to participate the International summer camp for a few years with as many students of his dojo as possible.
Than he graded when Shihan told him he was ready for it .
He did a hell of a grading i was there and witnessed it .
( i.e. 30 man kumite although he was 45 years already and normally exempted from kumite for grading )
I just wanna say LoQi-san that given a shodan degree is maybe a little bit
exaggerated i 'm pretty sure that the guy who converted had to prove himself first .
You can however already act as a branchchief during the process of conversion
but that is another story.

Dobbersky-san to answer your question ,
I'm pretty sure that for whatever organisation you would choose , you would be welcomed with open arms .
Of course you would have to demonstate your abilities , and it would'nt be from sign here , pay this and here is your belt .
But after a considerable period and evaluation you would be finally accepted
by the new organisation and in the end converted .

[jolut]

When Sweden and Denmark joined NIKO in 1988 (and some danes in 1989), all black belts was given their present rank from Honbu. No testing was required.
We where all kyokushin based students. I was one of them.

[Azimuth]

Well thx for the information , than all i can say is that the policy obviously is changed over the years .

[Martin H]

Politics always plays a big part when groups and top level practitioners switch to other organizations. Will they be a "threat" to the power of established power structure by becoming senior? Will they take enough members into the organization that it is worth overlooking requirements for them to re-grade. Will they spread the organization into new regions?

There may be set rules and polices for it, but rule and policy are broken easily enough if there are a good political/economical reason.

[jolut]

Yes, well said Martin . Out transfer was of cource political. Ashihara karate was not introduced to Europe in that time for a lager public. A lot of creds to Azimuth's Sensei who converted to Ashihara in a splendid way
I think a student from Holland was the first to train Ashihara karate in Europe in around '86-'87. Then more dojos joined from Holland.

[Nix]

Originally Posted by Azimuth

I just wanna say LoQi-san that given a shodan degree is maybe a little bit
exaggerated i 'm pretty sure that the guy who converted had to prove himself first .

I don't know the exact conditions around his convertion. I believe that is classified information, that is not for us simple kyu-degrees to hear.

As a sidenote, all respect to your Sensei for doing such a great job. However, I don't think it is exactly true that people over a certain age is excempted from kumite. Different branches have different rules and different requirements for grading, as do the hosts of the international summer camp, Viborg Karate Skole.

Osu!

[Azimuth]

We should have uniformity in grading requirements and all the rest if we want to stand as an organisation .
And that is all i want to say about it
OSU .

[Nix]

Azimuth,

Yes, I agree with you completelly. Here in Denmark, most of the dojo are members of an organisation called DAO (Danish Ashihara Organisation). Members of this organisation has the same grading requirements, and all gradings to a higher grade (2nd kyu and up) are graded by the DAO council, and not the students individual dojo. This allows for better cooperation between the various dojo and a greater understanding of eachothers grades.

However, I do believe that Honbu has sent out new revised curriculum to all NIKO branches, that focuses a lot on kata, and has no kumite. Although I believe that it is a good initiative, we must realise that Ashihara in Japan is different than it is in Europe, and my personal opinion is that the current DAO curriculum as well as the previous one suits our style very well. I think we will see changes in the years to come.

With fear of beeing annihilated,

Nix

[Azimuth]

I know there is more in the pipeline than only the revised curriculum.
We as Europeans should start and work together and not wait until the organization falls apart.
There is room for a personal European cachet without being disloyal to Honbu
Is there cooperation between all European branch chiefs as listed in the members list ?
I don't think so . Did we ever train together with the Spanish or the French ?
The British and the Scottish branches ?
Not to my knowledge .
There is a lot of work to do and it is 11.55 ( five to twelve ).

Osu

[ksan]

I agree with Azimuth. I have no insight in the Ashihara organisation but i do know that the more your organisation grows the harder you have to work to keep the wheel turning..... Forum boards lik ethis and a lot of interpersonal contact between students at all levels also contributes to the growing of an organisation.

Osu (just my two cents)

[Nix]

Once again, I couldn't agree with you more, Azimuth. I think it is a dilemma, as we want to (and are encouraged to) help improve the style, but still don't want to be disloyal to Honbu. The last thing we need is another offshoot. Sure, some things can be done differently, but I think the best things we can do is to let the right people sort things out, instead of blowing things out of proportions. Things are not all bad.

Osu

[Dobbersky]

Sensei's and Sempai’s

It looks like I have asked a question a lot of people were thinking. I actually agree partially. Although I would honour the current grade but they would need to grade to the standard required for the next grade at the allotted time scale. For example a Shodan would have to wait 2 years upon joining the organisation before being considered for Nidan and so forth. Kyu grades same timescales involved.

There are differences in the way the kata's are 'performed' I have noticed between the different organisations but this is only similar to the differences in other karate Ryu

Excellent Responses

Osu

[olyckan]

Originally Posted by Azimuth

I know there is more in the pipeline than only the revised curriculum.
We as Europeans should start and work together and not wait until the organization falls apart.
There is room for a personal European cachet without being disloyal to Honbu
Is there cooperation between all European branch chiefs as listed in the members list ?
I don't think so . Did we ever train together with the Spanish or the French ?
The British and the Scottish branches ?
Not to my knowledge .
There is a lot of work to do and it is 11.55 ( five to twelve ).

Osu

OSU! There are reasons for this. I strongly recommend LoQi (if you get the chance to talk some with Shihan Dai Kim Andersen) if you want to know more about ashihara and what has happend/not happend after kancho passed away. I know as Hidenori took over he was very young. There is alot of changes coming to ashihara soon regarding both competions, grading system etc from what i´ve heard. Sorry but i am not the person to really give anymore info regarding these changes or info about the past and development of NIKO. Patience.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by LoQi

According to this page, which I found on Narker's AKI site, there are ten styles/organisations that evolvedfrom Kancho Ashihara's teachings, two of which bear the Ashihara name: NIKO and his own AKI. David Cook and David Jonkers are under the same style, Ashihara Budokai.

Can it be assumed that the information on the AKI page is incorrect, or that Jonker established another organisation, AIKO?

I e-mailed Soke Cook...
He replied to my e-mail, by stating that his style, Tsu Shin Gen, is not a offshoot of Ashihara, though their is a Russian Ashihara group that he run's...

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by Spirit

I e-mailed Soke Cook...
He replied to my e-mail, by stating that his style, Tsu Shin Gen, is not a offshoot of Ashihara, though their is a Russian Ashihara group that he run's...

TSG is no more ashihara than ashihara is kyokushin.
But just as ashihara or daido juku are offshots from kyokushin, TSG is a offshot from ashihara. Since Cook started out in kyokushin, and then did ashihara for so long, he would have a hard time NOT building TSG on those styles (with a healthy bit of judo and other influences added).

I think there is a terminology problem here.
IMO:
Offshot=based on, but new/changed style.
Splintergroup=fundamentally the same style (maybe a few cosmetic differences), just a new organization.

TSG most definitely is not ashihara, but it IS a ashihara offshot style.

[jolut]

In 1987, Cook Sensei belonged to IKJU, International karate Jujutsu Union, with few dojos in Sweden and Denmark.
In august '87, one student from sweden and one student from denmark went to Japan, to visit Ashihara Hideyuki Kancho. Cook Sensei joined NIKO, 1 jan 1988.
He left NIKO in ca 1991 and thus created a Splintergroup with Jonker Sensei. In ca 1995, TSG was created. TSG uses the sabaki princip of Ashihara karate and as Martin pointed out, TSG is a Offshot of Ashihara Karate IMHO.
Ashihara is a offshot of kyokushin. Kyokushin is goju/shotokan and so on.
If as stated,"Tsu Shin Gen, is not a offshoot of Ashihara", what is TSG? A totally new system? I dont know, as I have not seen how it been practiced last 10 years

[Nix]

Originally Posted by olyckan

OSU! There are reasons for this. I strongly recommend LoQi (if you get the chance to talk some with Shihan Dai Kim Andersen) if you want to know more about ashihara and what has happend/not happend after kancho passed away. I know as Hidenori took over he was very young. There is alot of changes coming to ashihara soon regarding both competions, grading system etc from what i´ve heard. Sorry but i am not the person to really give anymore info regarding these changes or info about the past and development of NIKO. Patience.

Osu. Than you for the advice, I might just ask Shihan Dai about this if the opportunity arises. Some of the older black belts might know something as well.

By the way, I stumbled across this:

Before Hideyuki died in 1995, he realised his adolescent son Hidenori Ashihara was too young to become the new Kancho. So he called together his most loyal students, such as Sensei Suzuki and Shihan Yuasa, and asked them to help guide his son until he was old enough to become Kancho. Today, Kancho Hidenori is twenty-three, and because of their respect and admiration for Hideyuki, his men still remain loyal to Hidenori.

I do not know when the text was published, but it can be read in its entirety on knucklepit

[Spirit]

Well, I'll go by what Cook told me, since he is a very good man. I enjoyed my time training with him and he has always been respectful to me even after years of not seeing/talking.

Not mentioned about his training past was his Wing Chun training in the 70's. In 82 he meet and started training with Ruiz Shihan, then in the 90's the Shoot Style.
All this along with Kyokushin, Ashihara and Ashihara Intern;; came to be TSG.
So since Kyokushin was not his first MA and other influences came to play during the evolution of the system. I have to think Shihan Cook's thinking TSG is not a offshoot or not a splinter.

It all comes down to semantics I guest on a forum, everyone has their info and opinions and until the said person weighs in on the subject we are all incorrect!

I guess Martin is on the best path of explaining it though.

[Dobbersky]

Sensai's, Sempai's and Kohai's

It seems to show that Shifu Bruce Lee is not the only Kaicho to take a bit from here and a bit from there and 'create' a Ryu that is like so many yet unlike so many at the same time.

I suppose this is the complete ethos of the 'book of five rings' when Mushashi advises to master many styles (schools) not just one.

All I know is that Ashihara O Sensei will be proud of where his style has evolved and that it a worldwide style, which IS a complete, art and can be adapted for all circumstances.

Also that AshiharaKa are above all the 'politics' that 'spoilt' most other organisations around the world.


Osu

Osu

[Markku]