Karate To Kill

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by BiiggDDD

Yea true it wasn't a real art of war, but when needed they killed right?

NO............

[BiiggDDD]

SO your telling me defending off your family or yourself from a samurai attacker(s) and you got a chance to kill them they wouldn't? thats dumb as hell,(excuse my language on that one)

Mod Edit: Profanity removed - Writing Excuse my Language after profanity doesnt excuse it - ever.

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by guest

The first rule of Kyoukushin: Avoid/walk/run away from a conflict.
Many (if not all ) of the kihon we pratice could kill another human being!
I would NEVER use any of the training I have recieved to hurt anyone.
Tournaments excluded. Having said this I would not hesitate to use lethal force if no other choice was left to me in a situation where I or someone I love was in danger. Too many people view Karateka as violent individuals.
We must work together to change this perception. OSU!

I don't think Karate has that reputation at all. And i think the movie Karate Kid had a lot to do with that by showing a very peacefull image of it. It was after that movie that Western Karate saw a boom in what concerns the number of practictitioners.

On the other hand i think Kickboxing and Brazilian Ju-jutsu have a not so good reputation. If you go to Brasil there are many cases of Ju-jutsu badboys playing Gracies and as such, provoking street brawls. Ryan Gracie who passed away a few days ago in a police squad was an example of this reality.

Here where i live it's more Kickboxing/Boxing which has a badass reputation. A lot of ghetto kids are into it (and the same happens in other European countries). Karate here is regarded as weak style and almost nobody has a clue what Kyokushin Karate is (except in the northern region of the country).

Brazilian Ju-jutsu is also growing here. We hold every year the European Brazilian Ju-jutsu Championships and we have a big influx of brazilian immigrants. MMA competition is also starting to grow here which also contributes for developing the recognition of Brazilian Ju-jutsu.

However we're already witnessing here some big rivalries between Ju-jutsu academies and occasional street fights and badass attitudes during the tournaments. The fact that some of the guys who are teaching here already have a criminal record in Brazil doesn't help much either and even though this is not the majority (fortunately), it's pretty damaging for the reputation of Brazilian Ju-jutsu. Some of them even pretend to be peacefull among the students parents or girls but when they're just talking to you in private they reveal all their crap (even though some of it are just lies).

I felt this reality close since one of the guys who was training in my old Ju-jutsu academy wanted to kill me and some other guys once because of a girl! He only manage to threaten the intructor with a gun but was smart enough to calm down. I found out that he already had a serious criminal record having killed 5 people in Brazil and now he's training in another academy. And then, the worst thing i could imagine was one my Ju-jutsu training partners who respect me being given a gun by our intructor to collect a debt. That and the steroids usage for competition purposes was the boiling point for me. I felt like i was training with the most technical Ju-jutsu guys here but at the same time they act as criminals.

So, regarding the goals of Karate and other martial arts, let me tell you what i think and i have said it here before. Martial arts are fighting methods which can be used for self defense or agression. It all depends on the person (and it's sensei). The samurai for instance used it for both purposes. To save their lifes and to assassinate their enemies. Masutatsu Oyama himself claimed to have been part of special assassination unit (since he wasn't accepted as pilot) during the Second World War (although i'm not sure about this).

Personally, i like to to use it only for self defense and that's what should be stressed in every dojo. However if you go to regular Kickboxing/Boxing gym you may or may not find a good intructor in the sense that he will only teach you how to fight and nothing else. A sensei to me should help you grow as Man, not just as mere killing machine.

If you have a bad character and only learn how to beat people up, martial arts will make you a more dangerous person (for others and for yourself). If not, then i assume you'll even become better (more stronger, more tolerant, more humble, more friendly, more selfconfident, more responsable, more disciplined, more aware and more preseverant).


Osu!!

[homer_simpson]

If you really want to kill people, a soft pillow in the hands will kill.
If you have no intention of hurting/murdering people, a sharp knife won't hurt anybody.
It's just a matter of heart, not the instruments.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by homer_simpson

If you really want to kill people, a soft pillow in the hands will kill.
If you have no intention of hurting/murdering people, a sharp knife won't hurt anybody.
It's just a matter of heart, not the instruments.

hey homer, that was a bit clever

[Bloke]

Nicely put Homer

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by BiiggDDD

SO your telling me defending off your family or yourself from a samurai attacker(s) and you got a chance to kill them they wouldn't? thats dumb as hell,(excuse my language on that one)

Dates for when Samurai and Karate in Japan don't match up...

Japanese Karateka, I would say never were attacked by Samurai, since a Japanese karateka of any skill would not have been around till sometime in the late 1920's, or 30's. Before that, the master where of Okinawan birth.
As well killing by the sword in those times (1900's) was not really seen/happen.

Now if you are talking about the linear Okinawan art {formed by Sakugawa aka "Tode (translation karate) Sakugawa or honed by Matsumura, Itosu & Azato to name a few} which Japanese Karate is a cousin of, then that is a bit different. Then yes they (the Okinawan's in their country in the 1800's or earlier) did kill using their hand and feet skills, but more often to maimed etc than killed.

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Dates for when Samurai and Karate in Japan don't match up...

Japanese Karateka, I would say never were attacked by Samurai, since a Japanese karateka of any skill would not have been around till sometime in the late 1920's, or 30's. Before that, the master where of Okinawan birth.
As well killing by the sword in those times (1900's) was not really seen/happen.

Now if you are talking about the linear Okinawan art {formed by Sakugawa aka "Tode (translation karate) Sakugawa or honed by Matsumura, Itosu & Azato to name a few} which Japanese Karate is a cousin of, then that is a bit different. Then yes they (the Okinawan's in their country in the 1800's or earlier) did kill using their hand and feet skills, but more often to maimed etc than killed.

The ancestral art of Karate, Tote (or Tode) was developed by the people of Okinawa (altough beased in Kenpo) in order to defend themselves from the samurai. Remember the japanese had forbiden the natives of Okinawa to carrie weapons and therefore they began developing empty hands fighting methods and also unsuspect weapons training (nunshaku, tonfa and other tools). Now although the main purpose was self defense it's obvious that were probably people who used it for agression. Duels were common during those times and could end up in the death of someone. There was no referee to stop the fight.

Same goes for Judo/Ju-jutsu. After the Meiji Revolution, Ju-jutsu and other hand-to-hand fighting methods gained more attention and it was common during this century to watch deadly brawls in the streets. Jigoro Kano was one of the man behind this kind of challenges. To test his Kano-ryu Ju-jutsu (later known as Kodokan Judo), he challenged other Ju-jutsu schools and some of the fights ended up in death or severe damage to prove his point (as it was the case of the Tokyo Police Director in 1886, who was fighting for Shinto-ryu Ju-jutsu).
But it was also the same man who wanted to change this way of fighting. He wanted to make it less brutal and more sports like without losing efficiency. We must also take into account that during this time the japanese were absorving a lot of the western culture and it was important for Kano to pass down a good image of Japan. He thought there was no more place for deadly fights but instead combat sport matches. He wanted his students to tap out if necessary instead of getting their bones broken or even getting killed.
Gishin Funakoshi and other martial arts intructors at the time who met Kano agreed with his philosophy and made turned their martial arts into something much less brutal.

But still , you must not forget that during the Second World War there are many accounts of japanese martial artists (mainly Ju-jutsuka/Judoka and Karateka) fighting chinese martial artists in death matches. They learned martial arts and used it to kill others. Of course i want to believe most of them only did because they were forced to but some reports show otherwise. This war and the japanese behaviour in China and Korea at the time was tottaly opposed to the spirit of Bushido and what is interesting is that this was a time of expansion for japanese martial arts (and supposedly Bushido).

There were however, many japanese and Okinawa natives who refused to fighti in the war or secretly helped the chinese population as they could.

Once again, it all depends on the person. The choice of killing/agression or not in ultimate circunstance only depends on you.

[tmd]

What is more lethal is the actions of the unskilled or uncontrolled - karate teaches me to control my actions and only take the appropriate path. I know I was lost without it and far more 'lethal' (if this is not to deep)

[BiiggDDD]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Dates for when Samurai and Karate in Japan don't match up...

Japanese Karateka, I would say never were attacked by Samurai, since a Japanese karateka of any skill would not have been around till sometime in the late 1920's, or 30's. Before that, the master where of Okinawan birth.
As well killing by the sword in those times (1900's) was not really seen/happen.

Now if you are talking about the linear Okinawan art {formed by Sakugawa aka "Tode (translation karate) Sakugawa or honed by Matsumura, Itosu & Azato to name a few} which Japanese Karate is a cousin of, then that is a bit different. Then yes they (the Okinawan's in their country in the 1800's or earlier) did kill using their hand and feet skills, but more often to maimed etc than killed.

Just wanted to prove my point, you did'nt have to go on a full out forum battle, if u want its on lmao ^^

[seienchin]

BiigDDD - you are a welcome new member of the forum, but my observation is that Spirit and Sonik were both offering you information. Not a battle. We don't behave that way in this forum. Please treat other members with respect, because if they are courteous enough to post a detailed response to an issue you raise, it is the least they deserve. This forum is our virtual dojo. Please don't behave disrespectfully. And it won't be "on" - because it won't be allowed.

Everybody - please read the forum rules, and remember, "We obey the rules of courtesy, respect our superiors, and refrain from violence".

[guty]

ill have to agree with spirit their is no relation between karateka and samurai whatsoever,...different time and space frame..and about the subject of converzation... you can use a match to light a candle or to burn a house to the ground , if you ask could karate kill?..yes it can...-have people use it to kill before...yes some have and some still do, -is it like an cartoon/anime ,like the movies??....PLEASE MY FRIEND BE SERIOUS!!!

[Spirit]

Seienchin is a much more eloquent writer than I.

Me, a little blunt, but that is me.

[BiiggDDD]

All i said was that karate can kill and i got Spirit pulling out like 3-4 paragraphs on my ass like i did something horrible saying that karate can kill. Don't understand what i made you pisst about but chill out, point is basically i said Karate can kill and i got u all on my ass, chill out damn son

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by BiiggDDD

All i said was that karate can kill and i got Spirit pulling out like 3-4 paragraphs on my ass like i did something horrible saying that karate can kill. Don't understand what i made you pisst about but chill out, point is basically i said Karate can kill and i got u all on my ass, chill out damn son

Look at 17 you have much to learn, and many years of people correcting you when you step out of line, or state incorrect info.
Get use to it now or it will be much harder when you step into the work world.

So tell me D, do cry this much when you get corrected in the dojo?

You made a statement that was incorrect and you where corrected with a good explaination.
Deal with it, stop crying over spilt milk!

[Sonik]

Originally Posted by BiiggDDD

All i said was that karate can kill and i got Spirit pulling out like 3-4 paragraphs on my ass like i did something horrible saying that karate can kill. Don't understand what i made you pisst about but chill out, point is basically i said Karate can kill and i got u all on my ass, chill out damn son

Everybody is chilled. Spirit was just exposing some points you should take into consideration. You're the one who's makig a big deal out of it. Relax.

[Spirit]

Karate can't kill, just like a gun can't kill... It takes someone to strike the person or pull the trigger to kill.

So again your question is answered with a NO!!!

[BiiggDDD]

wow ok you proved your point i get it, read over your statements and reasons why. No i don't cry its a waste of time, and i wasn't crying over anything i was trying to prove my point and as for the working world i been working since was 14 becuz my family how you say it isn't that rich? Oh and when i do get corrected i learn from the mistakes i dont bitch and cry about it.

[chen3141]

Originally Posted by Sonik

I don't think Karate has that reputation at all. And i think the movie Karate Kid had a lot to do with that by showing a very peacefull image of it. It was after that movie that Western Karate saw a boom in what concerns the number of practictitioners.

And then, the worst thing i could imagine was one my Ju-jutsu training partners who respect me being given a gun by our intructor to collect a debt. That and the steroids usage for competition purposes was the boiling point for me. I felt like i was training with the most technical Ju-jutsu guys here but at the same time they act as criminals.

Sorry if I offend you Sonik, but I can't shake the images of the cobra kai off this description.

John Kreese: Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it?
Cobra Kai: No, Sensei!
John Kreese: Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it?
Cobra Kai: No, Sensei!
John Kreese: Defeat does not exist in this dojo, does it?
Cobra Kai: No, Sensei!
John Kreese: Prepare! What do we study here?
Cobra Kai: The way of the fist, sir!
John Kreese: And what is that way?
Cobra Kai: Strike first, strike hard, no mercy, sir!