Instructor>Student relationship

Gar23 · 08-19-2008, 04:24 AM

Hi, it's been awhile since I made a post but i'm wondering to what lengths people have defended the traditional view of this relationship. I'll admit that this is more or less a personal post.

I study under an 8th dan female instructor who I've known since I was about 8. This instructor while certainly a capable teacher has at a few times confided in me the difficulties and insecurities of being a female kyokushin artist. Recently, I was out with a few co-workers (one of them being my supervisor) when I casually brought up possibly getting a few of them in to the dojo for fight night, have a few rounds and possibly make some new students. Well, of course, once they realized that "shihan" was a "she" in this situation i was barraged with the usual questions. "Is she hot?" "is she a homo?" "would she like it if I made a pass at her?" and others that are too disrespectful to Kyokushin to state. Of course I declined to state anything and made clear that giving any answer to that at all would be insulting to my instructor and that they had hit a nerve and should change the topic. But this made them press the issue. In the end, established friendships were broken and I fear that my job isn't going to be the same as it was before. But one thing I can't seem to shake from my mind is: Am I wrong?

Should I have played along and prevented any escalation of the conflict knowing I was disrespecting a respected figure from my childhood? Or was I right in staying true to my spirit no matter what the cost was? (no, there was no physical conflict of any kind). Any input would be greatly appreciated.

-Gar

vapor · 08-19-2008, 04:28 AM

I think you did the right thing.

Not always the easiest thing to do, especially given the company involved...but the right thing none the less.

vapor

milwaukeecop2 · 08-19-2008, 05:19 AM

if it creates a hostile work enviroment for you, they will be breaking the law. in or out of the office, your co-workers continued to pursue asking questions about someone of a sexual nature and you TOLD them to stop, and they CONTINUED to harrass you.
If this continues to be an issue, I would see a lawyer.

Aunty Ichigeki · 08-19-2008, 07:09 AM

You rock. Chivalry is not dead! I'd be impressed if you reacted similarly regardless who the woman was. Respect.

GJEChamberlain · 08-19-2008, 07:59 AM

Osu!

I think you made a rod for your own back. It's unrealistic to expect a group of young men to revere anyone in karate in the way you do, so by reacting as you did you just lit their fuse, female or not.

Aunty - Honestly now - would you expect a group of young ladies out for a drink to talk about a 'hot' gym instructor in terms of his attractiveness or would that be similarly out of bounds?

Gary

milwaukeecop2 · 08-19-2008, 08:09 AM

I believe the OP stated to them, that the person in question is a childhood friend, and he wanted the subject dropped, as he found thier comments crude and offensive.
He set clear boundries, that they choose to cross. I hope the OP consults a lawyer if they pursue to carry this incident over to a hostile work enviroment.

GJEChamberlain · 08-19-2008, 08:16 AM

That's just absolutely ridiculous. Consulting a lawyer about workplace banter will just kill any friendships that may exist and get him frozen out of every subsequent event or social outing.

A high price to pay for being legally correct.

He should roll with it and take it on the chin. They'll forget about it soon and move on to ribbing someone else. Unless we really want everyone to work in a cold sterile environment without fun, these laws are just for lawyers to make a few quid.

Gary

blazindave · 08-19-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gar23

Hi, it's been awhile since I made a post but i'm wondering to what lengths people have defended the traditional view of this relationship. I'll admit that this is more or less a personal post.

I study under an 8th dan female instructor who I've known since I was about 8. This instructor while certainly a capable teacher has at a few times confided in me the difficulties and insecurities of being a female kyokushin artist. Recently, I was out with a few co-workers (one of them being my supervisor) when I casually brought up possibly getting a few of them in to the dojo for fight night, have a few rounds and possibly make some new students. Well, of course, once they realized that "shihan" was a "she" in this situation i was barraged with the usual questions. "Is she hot?" "is she a homo?" "would she like it if I made a pass at her?" and others that are too disrespectful to Kyokushin to state. Of course I declined to state anything and made clear that giving any answer to that at all would be insulting to my instructor and that they had hit a nerve and should change the topic. But this made them press the issue. In the end, established friendships were broken and I fear that my job isn't going to be the same as it was before. But one thing I can't seem to shake from my mind is: Am I wrong?

Should I have played along and prevented any escalation of the conflict knowing I was disrespecting a respected figure from my childhood? Or was I right in staying true to my spirit no matter what the cost was? (no, there was no physical conflict of any kind). Any input would be greatly appreciated.

-Gar

I would have done the same thing.
All i can tell you is that you did well.

intwominds · 08-19-2008, 08:54 AM

I congratulate you on standing your ground and defending your friend.
Perhaps stating they had hit a nerve wasn't the shrewdest move, like most people (including karateka) we often look for the weak spot in others to aim for, whether it be physical or emotional, etc. I work with a bunch of rowdy women, and I know better than to admit any weakness otherwise its unmerciless torture for the rest of the day. Its all done in fun, but I'm still wary. The best way I have found to counter any barrage of comments is to make fun of it first, for example your question "would she like it if I made a pass at her?" I would probably say something like "sure, she would love it, she broke her last punching bag so I know she's looking for another so go for it!" or "what makes you think she would be interested in you?, she has GOOD taste!"
This way you really don't answer their questions but you also show no disrespect to your friend.
Much easier in hindsight, harder when you're on the spot, so don't beat yourself up too much. Give it a while, as Gary says they will soon get over it. If they don't then you may have to take further action, but just see how it goes. Making too big a fuss straight away may just cause resentment and hostility at work, which is no fun!

Nix · 08-19-2008, 10:36 AM

I think intwominds has a good suggestion. Avoid the questions with humour, then move on to a new topic if you want. Defending a friend is all well and good, but if it is at the cost of other friendships or a good working environment, I'm not so sure. You have to decide that for yourself. Seeking a lawyer is overreacting, I think, unless they purposedly and continously attempts to harass you. I would try to find another solution, anyway.

**jcc** · 08-19-2008, 11:07 AM

Osu! Gar23,

I think you have some very immature co-workers and are better off without them as friends. Saying that, humour would have been a better reaction, but nonetheless I think you did the correct thing. If your co-workers really cared anything for your feelings, they would have backed off. Not doing so shows a lack of respect for you.

Osu!

seienchin · 08-19-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gar23

I study under an 8th dan female instructor who I've known since I was about 8.

Wow! An 8th Dan woman. Wild. I haven not heard of any women this senior in Kyokushin, What a privilege to train with her!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gar23

This instructor while certainly a capable teacher has at a few times confided in me the difficulties and insecurities of being a female kyokushin artist.
.

Oh yeah...nods and knowing smiles there....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gar23

Well, of course, once they realized that "shihan" was a "she" in this situation i was barraged with the usual questions. "Is she hot?" "is she a homo?" "would she like it if I made a pass at her?" and others that are too disrespectful to Kyokushin to state.
.

I don't think this is about respect to Kyokushin. This is about respect for women, full stop.

And Gary, no, a group of women would NOT talk that way about someone that a member of the group said was a personal friend and their teacher! It would be SICK.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gar23

Am I wrong?

Should I have played along and prevented any escalation of the conflict knowing I was disrespecting a respected figure from my childhood? Or was I right in staying true to my spirit no matter what the cost was?

Only you can actually answer this. It sounds to me like you have a bond with this instructor that means this kind of assault (verbally) caused a similar reaction in you to what you would experience if they made those kind of inappropriate comments about your mum or your sister. Which, if they were friends, they would not do.

I think you rock, but what I think doesn't matter. I think your instructor would be incredibly impressed and proud that you had the guts to do this. I know I would be!

**ksan** · 08-19-2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seienchin

Wow! An 8th Dan woman. Wild. I haven not heard of any women this senior in Kyokushin,

Same here, can you give us some more details (dojo webpage or a bio) would be very interesting to read more about her...

osu

kakatootoshi · 08-19-2008, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seienchin

And Gary, no, a group of women would NOT talk that way about someone that a member of the group said was a personal friend and their teacher! It would be SICK.

Dear seienchin,
This I seriously disagree. Have you ever heard women talking about their male personal trainers? By saying that one gender will certainly NOT do one thing while there is already an accusation against the opposite gender of doing the same thing, are you not showing a partisan view of the story? Is not this in one way or the other spreading the belief of inequality of morality between genders, which is a form of discrmination?

OSU!

seienchin · 08-19-2008, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

Dear seienchin,
This I seriously disagree. Have you ever heard women talking about their male personal trainers? By saying that one gender will certainly NOT do one thing while there is already an accusation against the opposite gender of doing the same thing, are you not showing a partisan view of the story? Is not this in one way or the other spreading the belief of inequality of morality between genders, which is a form of discrmination?

OSU!

Good point kaka-san, but what I was intending to say was that this would not happen amongst a DECENT group of women...Gary's suggestion was that it would happen with ANY group of women, and I disagree. You might find some groups of women, from some social settings, where this would be common practice.

I don't have issue that the girls might ask if he is cute. Sure. Would they then embark on predatory comments? Highly unlikely. And no decent bunch of gentlemen would actually, either.

And chatting about the hunk at the gym is very different to talking about someones lifelong friend/teacher! That to me is the distinguishing feature. If a group of women HAD done that, I doubt anyone would be saying it is OK. It would be lewd, disrespectful, and demeaning to both the participants and the target of their attentions.

Gar23 · 08-19-2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ksan

Same here, can you give us some more details (dojo webpage or a bio) would be very interesting to read more about her...

osu

Osu.
About the Instructor

seienchin · 08-19-2008, 01:55 PM

Thanks Gar. Great to see her not just surviving, but thriving as a martial artist!

**ksan** · 08-19-2008, 03:40 PM

she looks very familiar... dont know why ....

thnx for the info

Osu

StarKodama · 08-19-2008, 10:48 PM

Thanks for the link, Gar23-san! Renee-shihan looks like a truly awesome lady. What an inspiration!

As for your coworkers, I have to chime in with the others-- your buddies were out of line, but I think a little humor on your part might have worked better to defuse the situation.

Live and learn, right?

Sponsored Links