Bunkai Forum

[ksan]

Osu,

I would like a bunkai forum. I am going to be really bussy with bunkai comming months/years and i would like to be able to discuss them here and keep all the threads together...

I know there will be difficulties between the organisations as for the correct technique used, but i suggest we use 1 book (i suggest Hanshi Steve Arneil`s book, because its cheap and easily available and the pictures are numbered) so we can use page numbers and picture numbers to talk about the moves and applications...

I am really interested in what other people think about certain appilcations and stuff...

Osu

Ksan

[kyokushin4life]

ksan-san,
that sounds like anice idea. Let's hear more opinions by more posters.

Osu.
K4L

[Martin H]

Im game.
Although I should probably tell you that I wont support many bunkai shown in that book. My opinion that I have never seen realistic/effective bunkai in kyokushin unfortunately still stands after I recently bought it (I know that this will cause me trouble since by extension I criticize a well known shihan, but it is the truth)

[Shokei Marcsui]

I am very interested. What is the book title and publication date so that I can get a copy of my own.

[ksan]

Originally Posted by Martin H

Im game.
Although I should probably tell you that I wont support many bunkai shown in that book. My opinion that I have never seen realistic/effective bunkai in kyokushin unfortunately still stands after I recently bought it (I know that this will cause me trouble since by extension I criticize a well known shihan, but it is the truth)

Osu Martin H,

There are no real bunkai`s in that book and i am kinda looking for people who think in this way because in that way we will get the most realistic bunkai`s on the table. For instance, i dont believe that a yonhon nukite to the solar plexus is to pierce someone`s solar plexus... Because none is that strong or fast and the fingers are to weak and blunt to penetrate and just hiting there isnt effective, especially against a trained opponent who see`s the attack comming...

Everyone`s opinion counts and we have so many people here, and so many people with a lot of experience, on the forum that we might come to a general conclusion.

I dont think Hanshi will be offended... one of the things he teaches is be critical and make the things work for you...

Osu


Ksan

[ksan]

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

I am very interested. What is the book title and publication date so that I can get a copy of my own.

This is the book
Kyokushin Karate Kata


You can get a copy by contacting Linda Keaveney (BKK Secretary) at
Linda Keaveney
58 Highfield Road
Chelmsford, Essex
CM1 2NQ
United Kingdom
Tel : 01245 256-891
Fax : 01245 496-142
email: liam.keaveney@btinternet.com


Osu

Ksan

[Bloke]

I think this is a great idea - Ksan have you considered cross referencing this with Hanshis own Bunkai book? (The one he wrote with Alexander Tanushkin and Victor Fomin).

[boldbhoy]

I have experienced different interpretations of bunkai within kata whilst training outwith iko1, and even differences in kata within iko1 in other countries
In the UK, Shihan Iain Abernethy seems to be the accepted leader in this field by we of iko1, and of a lot of other styles.
He is 5th Dan with the British Combat Association. There is a seminar happening soon at iko1 Nottingham dojo.
I'm sure it will be a success and will be well represented by other styles as our's was a few months ago in Scotland. (RASor posted a photo of some of the group from that camp/seminar with Shihan Abernethy on this forum)
I think the bunkai forum is a good idea and will prove popular, and also spark a bit of debate. OSU!

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by boldbhoy

In the UK, Shihan Iain Abernethy seems to be the accepted leader in this field by we of iko1, and of a lot of other styles.
He is 5th Dan with the British Combat Association. There is a seminar happening soon at iko1 Nottingham dojo.

I must confess that Iain pretty much is the one who changed my mind about kata from "i wish/hope there was/is effective/realistic bunkai" to "damn! that would work".

I dont suppose that anyone will videotape the seminar?? I would be willing to pay lot for Iains bunkai for kyokushin style kata (ordinarily he is a Wado ryu stylist).
He has released dvds covering the pinans and Kanku (although in wado versions mostly), but I would love to see some other kyokushin (or nahate/goju style like saiha, seipai, seienshin) katas explained. Not to mention a few kyokushin specific katas like yantsu and garyu.

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by Bloke

I think this is a great idea - Ksan have you considered cross referencing this with Hanshis own Bunkai book? (The one he wrote with Alexander Tanushkin and Victor Fomin).

I kind of tough that was the book we were talking about, since it is a bunkai specific book (which I dont agree with much in).
If we are talking about a simple kata walkthrough manual, I dont have it and must get it (I think it will be the 4th or 5th such one in my bookshelves +a few walkthrough books with both kihon and kata, so I cant say that Im all that exited about buying it).

[boldbhoy]

Osu, Martin H, I don't think I can make it personally to the seminar, but there are guys from my club going.
I'm not too sure how Shihan Abernethy feels about videoing and selling on, but I will find out more if I can.
I wish someone video taped the one we held as my brains were on meltdown by the end of the seminar as we had covered a lot of training and done a lot of work behind the scenes for the week leading up to the camp.
Add to that the fact we "sleep"? in the dojo, you can understand what I mean.
We covered the 3 teki katas (recently introduced to our syllabus, quite different from shotokan) and the first 3 pinans if I remember correctly.
I REALLY want to go to Nottingham!!! I hope my wife reads this..........

[Billy no mates]

Iain Abernathys books 'Karate grappling methods' and 'Throws for strikers' are certainly very relevant to this debate,as to Hanshi Arneils offerings i suspect he would be the first to admit that they are not supposed to be either exhaustive or definitive guides on the subject,so they are a good starting point to develop things from .

[Spirit]

Since Kyokushin is a 3rd or 4th generation style, maybe it would be best to go back to the beginning and work out from their to understand bunkai.
I'm on the side that no one teaches the bunkai with much knolwedge or insight, and it is all just a guessing game no matter their rank. Since their instructor did not know nor did their instructors (possible) so rank is not a indicater of knowledge in this matter and possible a big factor in not knowing.
Looking at a book is just validation that that way is correct or the fact that one learned it this way from a high ranking Dan will cause them to focus on that way.

Personally I do not believe that their are blocks (as we know them) in any kata and that the understanding of kata has been watered down so much the past 120 years that no one can give a valid point (even I maybe think incorrecly even though I would defend my thoughts)...
This is a can of worms that just may end up being a hugh fight on the forum. It has already in the past...

Though if you do go forward, I strongly suggest that one person should monitor the post (never post any views) and warn those that get angery at others that the post is only views or ideas of a unknown truth!!!!!!!!!! and that they should not take any comment or post personal or hold a grudge against anyones views on this subject!

[ksan]

Originally Posted by Bloke

I think this is a great idea - Ksan have you considered cross referencing this with Hanshis own Bunkai book? (The one he wrote with Alexander Tanushkin and Victor Fomin).

Osu Bloke,

I have it, but i think its to short and not indepth enough... though it is very nice to have as a starting point.

Osu

Ksan

[ksan]

Have seen some of Shihan Abernethy`s work and personally that is the direction i am aiming upon...


Osu

Ksan

[Shokei Marcsui]

Will the IFK sell me a book even though i'm not a member of their organization? Approximately how much does the book run for?

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

Will the IFK sell me a book even though i'm not a member of their organization? Approximately how much does the book run for?

I bought the bunkai book last month, and they didn't care that I was not a IFK member (which I made clear).
The bunkai book cost UK£18.00
keaveney also gave the prices £18.00 for the kata book and 3.50 for the kihon book -although I seriously think that the last one was a error. too cheap, and dont fit with the special package deal of £49.43 I was quoted for all 3 :-)

[Bloke]

Martin H

All the prices you quote are correct based on the last price list I got - maybe the £49.43 was the error.

We had Shihan Keaveney over recently and we went back to basics with Kata and Kihon. We didnt cover much bunkai but what we did worked.

[ryudo]

Man and I thought that kyokushin was Modern Karate, not traditional or classical karate...
Also I like to point something out, that I came to realization a long time ago, well not that long ago. I am talking about the kata that was design by Ashihara now that's a Kata that is actually usefull and has pourpose.
Well enough, I know now that I have over step my boundaries and I am talking about something else completly.

[ryudo]

Basically what I was trying to say is: The true meaning of kata has been lost thru time, either on pourpose or unintentionally.
But before you take my head off consider this fact. Look at any of the old fotos of the karate masters performing bunkais and pay attention how karate back then look more like ju-jutsu than what it looks like today...in other words ancient karate had a lot of grappling, probably more than what we think today.
So in view of this, since karate has change shouldn't we also change the katas and the bunkais. After all, hasn't modern karate become some sort of a different version of kickboxing.