Managing Parents of Juniors

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Who is this mysterious "Uncle" you keep referring to? Your husband?

Haha. Yeah since I was Aunty I started calling him Uncle... very funny to see other people starting to refer to him like that. In real life he's not very mysterious He's the head of our dojo & we have a fair few K4L members so he gets the mention sometimes. He's not an internet person himself so he contributes through me from the couch.

[Nix]

We allow parents to watch, as long as they stay out of the way, and don't distract. Some parents like this when they are beginners, but after a while, they lose interest/find trust in the instructors. When we take new members, the instructor on the children'sbeginner class sometimes reminds the parents that they can watch from outside the dojo, or in ourlounge (we've got a camera set up in our largest dojo, transmitting on a tv-screen downstairs).

My students are 8th kyu, and I only have spectacors once in a while. Noone besides the students and the instructors is allowed in the dojo at grading, and the doors will be locked shut, and the camera turned off.

At tournaments, weallow them to coach, seeing as it's impossible to get coaches for everybody, but if they misbehave, the referee might penalize or even disqualify the fighter.

I've never had any serious problems with parents, but if someone made an outburst about my training, or corrected the technique, I would be very offended. After all, I'm the "expert" on the field, not them, and when it comes to karate, I actually know their childrens abilities and limitations better than the parent. Simple as that.

[schuyler]

Easy solution: Don't train kids! I don't know if there is a thread about what age is appropriate to begin Kyokushin training, but since I opened my own dojo I only train students age 15 and up.

While the dojo where I started training had a large group of young students, I always found them to be a distraction to my own training. After a while our Shihan opened another dojo at a different location and all the kids/families went there, while the other's stayed at the original dojo. I like kids and all, but I don't think a child can truly understand what Kyokushin is all about.

My group holds an annual tournament called the Kyokushin Challenge, and let me tell you that the most challenging thing about the tournament is dealing with the coaches and parents of young fighters. They are so disrespectful to not only the organizers and judges, but also our Shihan. It makes me sick to see the way some parents speak and treat to those that volunteer their time to judge and help organize divisions for their children.

But, I'm young and don't run a 'for-profit' dojo, so I don't have to train kids.

osu!

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Aw that's one choice & if I had my own dojo I wouldn't be in a hurry to train kids because they scare me Thank goodness Uncle really loves it or we could never pay the rent. I think Kyokushin offers kids a lot though. Kids come to us as loose as gooses & I've looked at the class (especially in certain winds!?) & thought what a waste of time but now we've been doing it 8 years the kids are growing up & skills pop out overnight & you realise they do absorb this stuff after all! I have to say too, we don't have so many issues with parents as it sounds like others do. Our parents are polite & helpful & stay the hell out of the way come tournament time! Our kids coach each other & go to each other or someone in a dogi for support more often than their mummy! I suspect it might be a cultural thing. We found certain cultures behaved VERY badly at the Worlds, pushing & arguing with the Shihans who were in administrative roles... & these were Kyokushin students, kids & adults and their coaches. Maybe the problem runs deeper than the parents?

[Satori]

I often find myself frustrated with children, but then someone like Taiju comes along (Narushima dojo) and proves that children can have fantastic technique and discipline. So after looking at someone like Taiju, I come back to my dojo and am even more disappointed at the lack of effort amongst kids!

[Lucy]

I love teaching the juniors now ive been doing so for the last few weeks, but its very tiring and im just like a zombie when it comes to the senior session afterwards! Taken to drinking an energy drink before i jump into class

We don't seem to have any problems with the parents at the moment. They all seem very respectful and grateful that its someone elses turn to discipline their children lol. At tournaments they are well behaved (yes i meant the parents). Any questions or queries they raise they normally come to club coaches and any issues are resolved privately. I can't remember any incident where they have caused a scene with the organisers! Sure a few get upset when their kids don't do well especially at the kata tournament. We explain why and how the scores work and explain what went wrong and they are usually happy because they trust what we tell them obviously because they don't know about 'technical kata' stuff etc.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by Satori

II come back to my dojo and am even more disappointed at the lack of effort amongst kids!

interesting...yet with whom should you be disappointed? children have to learn absolutely everything in life. As babies they don't even know night and day, and they even need to be coaxed to suckle correctly. So effort...now taht takes some learning.

My experience is that instructors get what they expect out of kids. Expect soft fisted, sloppy technique with short, straight legged stances, and that is exactly what you'll get.

Expecct little "mini-adults" in terms of technique (definitely not in concentration or training methods), and you will get it if you keep telling them that you know it is in there somewhere. Kids just love being told that they are doing as well as the grownups. I never yet had a kiddy student that I could not get at least some excellent technique out of...and once they learn the glow of success in one or two bits of excellence, they just spiral upwards.

[Spirit]

If you expect structure from your students, then the same from the parents is needed........

[Satori]

Originally Posted by seienchin

interesting...yet with whom should you be disappointed? children have to learn absolutely everything in life. As babies they don't even know night and day, and they even need to be coaxed to suckle correctly. So effort...now taht takes some learning.

I should be disappointed with their parents.

I understand that not everyone does karate to be the best. Not everyone wants to be a good fighter. Not everyone wants to develop crisp technique. Some people just join to burn off a few kilo's. That's fine. Karate should be for everyone, and if they can get some benefit out of it then I really am happy for them. The same does not go for children.

Although this generalisation cannot be applied universally, I believe it's reasonably safe to say that children usually join for one of two reasons:
1. Their parents think it's a good idea.
2. They want to do it by themselves.

Let's cover the first point first. There are certain qualities students, especially children, must display in the dojo, not least of which is discipline. If their parents want them to join, then I expect something from them as well. I expect the parents to teach their children manners and courtesy. I expect parents to teach the children to pay attention to the instructor and obey instructions. Since this is a mutual agreement and we cannot fight (and expect to defeat) a child's nature, it is my responsibility as an instructor to keep children's attention by providing a class that is stimulating and that my expectation's of the students are reasonable.

As both instructors and parents, we have rights and responsibilities.

Assuming I'm keeping my end of the bargain, it is unfair for a child in my class to be distracting other students by constantly talking, to spin around or sit when I instruct everyone to stand, to chew on the sleeves of a gi just because it seems like a good idea... all these things are up to the PARENT. Even though some parents send their children to martial arts for discipline, as instructors we cannot ultimately force discipline on children.

In this case, the child is usually not really interested in karate in the first place so they don't want to put in the effort. It's the fault of the child's parents for forcing him or her into karate, as well as not instilling in the child a sense of discipline which would otherwise make the child put in effort even if they don't enjoy it.

Second option: they want to do it on their own, probably because they've recently seen some kung fu movie. In this case they should have a drive of their own, but discipline learnt from their parents is just as crucial. Being children, they won't have the attention spam required to repetitively drill a technique to perfection. They need something more than just a teacher, they need support and encouragement from home.

I hate to pick on him, but take Taiju as an example (I'm only using him because technically he's the best kid I've ever seen). I know nothing about his life, but I cannot believe that his parents don't push him. Now let's look at him physically. He's lean and has a physique perfectly suited to martial arts. Who can tell me that a tubby 8 year old boy's instructor is at fault for the boy's physical appearance? Medical condition's and genetic disorders aside, it is the fault of every parent that their kid is fat. Fat people always say "oh but we don't eat much, it's so unfair!" and then when you look at what they eat in a week you feel sick.

Every instructor is presented each student as a package, and it is the instructors job to do the best they can with what their students have. In the case of children, it is the parents who are solely responsible for that package (barring unfortunate accidents) arriving at the dojo in it's initial state. The upbringing this child has had, although short due to their young age, might have already been too counter-beneficial in relation to martial arts for the child to make any real progress. Perhaps they will benefit when they start thinking for themselves and come back later because they want it.

If you're not serious about karate that's fine, BUT if you're asking who's fault it is, it is purely the parents fault: they have the most influence on both the physical and the psychological growth of their child.

I've vented a bit here so I might have misinterpreted your question / gone way off on my own tangent with my answer. I've proofread it but I'm too tired to properly analyse if it's on topic.

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Ew there's so much good material there. I can't wait to hear what others say. I don't have much time but one family popped into mind as I was reading. One of our favourite kids of all time started with us when he was 4yrs (at a time when we didn't run a class for kids that young). He was tiny & adorable but he had a better brain than half our 10yr olds. His parents gave him a lot of attention in terms of sport and academics. He went to a top school & by the time he was 6ys he had registered his own company (with help from his folks). It was called Osu Clothing & he produced t-shirts & sold them at the local market on Saturdays. We admired this family A LOT (we were just thinking about having kids & thought we'd like to model ourselves on them).... then came their number 2 child Completely different story. Same parents, same school but the kid was loose as (not fat though ). Now we take parenting very seriously & our son is slim (lol) and nicely behaved (at least compared to a lot of kids his age in NZ but perhaps NOT compared to his Japanese peers!!) but he has all the focus of a goldfish. I've tried every technique available to man (we finally resorted to starting our Pee Wees class because he couldn't cope with the 1hr class!) It's hard work but slowly slowly with the help of school & karate he is learning focus and SELF discipline. Thank goodness our son's karate instructor is on the same page!

[koji112091]

Well I don't have a dojo so I can't realy give a good openion but who's openion say's that it's not good? Mine. So sence I say I can't give a good openion. this first paragraph is a complete waste of time and sorry if you read it by mistake.

Anyway, on a more serious note. I don't understand why kids would want there parents watching them. I would be glad to not be around them for a few hours. But I'm 15 and have probably a diferent view then others.

I never hurt anyone mostly because I never been in a kyokushin fight but when I did track at school I once lost 20 points off the team because I left to early on a relay and did not slow down. this is kind of like injuring someone but not as painfull.
anyway, because I thought about it for a while. I decided the only thing I could do to make it up to them was to run my hardest in the next even.
It was the mile relay. We were the team that usely got last place in this event but this time I sprented most of the lap and with the help of the team we got second place. Which is still loosing but better then we got the last time. After the meet was over i found out that If I had not lost the 800 meter relay we still would have got second by 1 point.

This is not karate but it is the closest thing to the topic.

OSU!

[sonofkanga]

So what are your views on taking kids with ADD, or ADHD.
They are a hand-full and can quite easily disrupt an entire class.
Or what happens when their idea of training changes?
Do you keep them and try to motivate them,or just drop them?

[seienchin]

Hmm- this is a tough one, as I have had a kid who was Aspergers with ADHD (translates as borderline autistic, with absoutely no social skills, and with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder).

Depends on the kid.

The problem I had with little Frank was that after a few weeks, none of the kids wanted to work with him, because it was so unrewarding. He would always end up being left out, so that had the potential to be really devastating to him (such that he was capable of caring). A child with a profound behavioural disorder is not suitable in a class environment, because they disrupt the experience of everybody. Even with the best controls in place, it had an impact on the class's energy. Ultimately, Frank's mum recognised this, adn withdrew him, but I didn't have it in me to tell her not to bring him...

I think a better solution might have been to try small-group lessons or even one-on-one with him, but I'm not sure it would have worked. (But I stand by my earlier post of being able to get even one or two excellent bits of technique...this kid had a really sharp gyaku-tsuki...)

[Satori]

Originally Posted by sonofkanga

So what are your views on taking kids with ADD, or ADHD.

I will give everyone a fair chance and the benefit of the doubt. If I have the means (time, resources, students numbers), I would try to organise a class especially for the less able or more demanding students. If this wasn't an option, I would just put them in my normal class but give them special attention. I don't see your point, since I stated in my earlier post "medical conditions and genetic disorders aside".

Originally Posted by sonofkanga

Or what happens when their idea of training changes?

I'm not sure what you mean here. No matter what their idea of training is, they should give it their best. If they have natural restrictions that cannot be surpassed, we'll try to get bye them anyway, but not have the same expectations of all students.

Originally Posted by sonofkanga

Do you keep them and try to motivate them,or just drop them?

I want 100% effort, not perfection. I want undivided attention and I want the very best from each student. They don't need to be champions, but damn it they need to give me everything they've got.

Like it or not, some children are just too young for karate. This is not strictly age but mental awareness and attention span. If I took a five year old child in for a month, I would carefully observe that child's progress and attitude. I would do all I can to bring out the best in the child, but after one month if I'm not convinced the child is ready to study then I "just drop them". Making a child who is evidently not ready to train continue to do so is not kind, nice, proper or compassionate. It's irresponsible and selfish, and as an instructor you should know better.

[seienchin]

I just have to share this story....of my only ever 5yo student to get his 8th kyu...
He was the youngest of 4 siblings training, and I refused to let him grade with his older brothers and sister six months earlier..so this was a big deal. The grading consisted of basics, 2 kata, a questionnaire on Kyokushin history and a demonstration of how to fold a gi.

He couldn't read - or write..so the questionnaire was a problem. he was assigned a "scribe" who wasn't allowed to help him, but only write exactly what he told them to. He had been verbally instructed in all the answers by his siblings, so he knew his stuff, and he was the only one in a grading of some 15 white belts (all the rest were adults) to get 100% on the quiz! Kids' memories are like sponges.

Then came the really funny bit. he had to fold a gi. The Gi was a size 8. He ran around it and around it like he was folding a giant tent. It was hilarious, but he did it, with the biggest smile on his face.

The other outstanding memory I have of that grading is his thick glasses. They kept sliding off his face. His mum kept running onto the floor between sets to push them back up his nose. Priceless...and under the circumstances, we forgave her this breach of ettiquette.

[Spirit]

Satori,
BRAVO< BRAVO!!!

I have to say you have a very good point and also say, you are a bit frustrated with the actions of the parents around you... Been their, Boy I can empathize with you so well. Parents are often the biggest problem in kids lifes when it comes to learning. So many children run the roost at home, no discipline or structure, no balance... effection, effection, effection. when it should be exersise, discipline, then effection. this will create a balanced life and the child can funtion in many different envinorments becuase they understand that each one has limitation to follow and its ok to follow them.

Sadly like the action/kung fu movies kids see and then wish to learn all the jumping, flying, spinning B/S and then come to the dojo to learn basic "boring" stuff. Think of the let down when they finally get to the dojo and learn that they are not going to learn...what their minds though they would.

This is where the dojo takes over, and becomes the parent and the dojo rules are just that rules and must be followed. caution, life your rules to the letter though or others will sway as you have.

In the USA kids tend to be far less disciplined, the parents less tuned to their life and you hear oh so often he/she was a staight A student how could he/she be on drugs or kill someone, or etc you get it.

One of the biggest learning tools that has always help me as a teacher is, never forgetting what it was like when i was a kid, the thoughts, the fears, the ideas, how easly I was impressed by the smallest things and woud follow it to no end, never forget...
Be fore you make a rash decision, think what would I had done when I was 4, 7, 10, 13...???

Keep your mind on the prize Satori, focus on all the kids, keep structure in place and be the mentor that the children will remember in 10 or 20 years from now. Give them hope and knowledge, structure, discipline, and balance.



Now for the ADD, AHDD I was one of those kids and structure is the key!!!!
Hell half the teens in the dojo where (end of the baby boomers and all the new drugs the parents started to take after WWII).

[Groucho]

Originally Posted by rxrliu

My partner was a 2nd kyu 40-ish woman (I was 5th kyu). She didn't complain. Neither did his husband. Now I don't even dare kicking her

Rxliu, my sensei had a great paraphrased saying for this:

Tiger Balm/ Bengay is the smell of Kyokushin

knocks and bruises and even more serious injuries are inevitable...we sign on for continued training knowing this...I don't know a single yudanshe that made it to that stage without some form of serious injury...mine was 2 cracked ribs...

it happens, don't beat yourself up...that's your sempai's job