Ranking Children?!?!

[Foktar]

Hi I was wondering what you all think about ranking children to shodan? In my opinion kids under 15 really dont have the technical ability or maturity to be ranked Shodan. Can a kid really compare to an adult? Give me your thoughts........

[Deaken]

I agree, before 14-15 years of age, children are just not ready for shodan. They don't have the maturity required.

[Miguel]

Ive never trained in a dojo where kids held a shodan, but I have seen videos where kids are black belts and I feel the same way as Deaken, they dont have the maturity for it and at that age how can you be sure they understand what it means to be a shodan. On the other hand you have to give them something for the time they put in. They can't be held as a yellow belt when they've been at it for 3+ years. Quite a dilemma.


Edit: Almost forgot. Welcome to the forums Foktar!

[schuyler]

One of the dojo's I trained at had junior black belts, but as soon as they turned 18 they had to retest for shodan.

[tmd]

What is a shodan? Is it more important than any other belt? Is it the mental image it represents the BLACK belt of awe. I know kids that can demonstrate every technique in the syllabus, each kata perfectly, do there fights and conditioning training as good as any adult so why hold them back and potentially encourage to seek other sports/ diversions.

For ALL sports the biggest drop out apart from the very immature is in the teen years and a lot of this is because they can't place themselves as either kids or adults. In tourneys they can find themselves too strong for kids fighting and not strong enough for adult events. If we say oh and by the way you've trained for 5 years but now can't grade until your x age do you think they will take it well?

I don't think there can be many -15 BB but those that have achieved this by the same route as any other deserves the same level of respect. If however the gradings are dumbed down for kids I would agree that at a certain age they should retake an 'adult' Shodan grading.

So I guess a different thread would be - do kids grade equally to adults and therefore are the grades a fair representation of ability.

[tansei]

In a Judo school I attended , there was an age requirement for each age. You couldn't go to your next belt after white before you were 6 years old... and you couldn't turn BB before 16. Imagine a child starting at 3 years old. They would train 13 years before getting their BB. If they endure, they will be a solid BB. But many ppl i spoke to that practiced Judo were discouraged and dropped out because of this system.

At the same time I've see kids as young as 9 turning BB. Inside they felt they didn't deserve it, and eventually quit. I do believe that you need a certain maturity level to pass your shodan. I don't know of any set rules for shodan, but nidan and above there is an age requirement in our system.

[jcbel]

Originally Posted by tmd

I know kids that can demonstrate every technique in the syllabus, each kata perfectly, do there fights and conditioning training as good as any adult so why hold them back and potentially encourage to seek other sports/ diversions.

But isn't Kyokushin more than pure physical ability though? Shouldn't a dan grade have a certain level of maturity? Not that I'm saying that ALL kids are not mature...

[seienchin]

I have never seen a child in a grading pushed to the limit that we push our yudansha. To be honest, if we did it would be child abuse.

So, I actually dont' think anyone who is legally a minor should be able to grade for shodan, because to stay with the laws regarding child abuse (at least within Australia), they really would not do a true kyokushin shodan grading.

I had the privilege of being present at a very gifted youngster's shodan grading. I think he was 16 years old. Even then, he was exceptionally capable and mature. But I sat on the sidelines of his final 20 fights (I was 1st kyu, and grading at the same time) truly weeping at what he was going through. Had child protection services been aware of what happened in that dojo on that day - . Even though his parents were present, and had consented, I believe that a pugnacious child protection officer could have made a case that we broke the law.

so - I'm not a big fan of the junior yudansha. I believe that a black-belt in kyokushin is as much an internal as an external achievement. I think putting a black belt on a junior has the potential to create more problems than it solves.

Now - a true junior black belt - that is, a black belt with a white stripe sewn through the middle, no problem with that. and they can do the full grading at 18.

[tmd]

Originally Posted by seienchin

I have never seen a child in a grading pushed to the limit that we push our yudansha. To be honest, if we did it would be child abuse.

Now - a true junior black belt - that is, a black belt with a white stripe sewn through the middle, no problem with that. and they can do the full grading at 18.

This seems so unavoidable given the understandably protective nature of our societies that the white through black and regrading at 18 seems the only solution. I see this as a win win as the kds don't get halted in thier progression but that the nature of thier belt is understood.

I have asked my kids there thoughts and to a point they agreed but said that 16 would be more appropriate, guess it's still that teenage question of not a child/ not an adult. They did agree that it should be done at this age but you would have to be grading with all adults, no junior fights.

[Aunty Ichigeki]

I'd be interested to hear from someone in Japan on this because there are lots of junior black belts there. I think in Japan generally the shodan grading is less about endurance & more about ability... even for seniors I think they can achieve blackbelt without getting in the same headspace many foreigners consider pre-requisite. I think that's because in Japan shodan is not such a senior rank! It really is a recognition of having the tools needed to start training in earnest. I've never seen anyone younger than 14 grade here & the fights were tempered for their physicality (same as they are for women).

[Spirit]

OK point of view statement...
The more belts added equals higher retention and more money from testing.

That is why we have gone back to wht, grn, brn, blk no Jr grade either.
Thinking of doing wht to blk only.... no other belts in between

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by Spirit

OK point of view statement...
The more belts added equals higher retention and more money from testing.

That is why we have gone back to wht, grn, brn, blk no Jr grade either.
Thinking of doing wht to blk only.... no other belts in between

i bow to your years of experience in running a dojo but white and black only?

if you are sparring as a brown belt against a green belt or visa versa i feel they are both on recognition of each others belt entitled within reason to "try each other out",how would this work with a white belt with 4 years experience fighting a white belt with 4 weeks experience?


also it might affect your student retention...people have to have goals in life and the recognition of going through the ranks gives people a sense of achievement, how many times in the threads do you read of people training really hard for their various kyu grades and then their pleasure when they achieve them....does this make people train harder than they would do otherwise?.....never mind the financial implications.

so your idea is either one of genius for somebody like myself who has no regard for the colour belt somebody is wearing[different from respect] i would have been quite happy training under these rules but how many other people would be?

[seienchin]

Back on topic, Fogies...

What about for Juniors?

I wrote a separate syllabus for juniors that would allow them to grade every six months from age six, but not make it to Shodan until 18. it was a formalisation of the reality taht we expect a different standard from a 7-yo 8th kyu than we do of a 12yo, than we do of an 18yo.

Any thoughts on this?

[hasbeen]

i think what you have done is very sensible and if everybody in all the various styles did the same, things would be a lot better...my worry is that little johnny`s friend has just got his black belt at the club down the road and johnny has been training at your club for 3 years what might he do? i would be distraught at putting so much effort in and losing him/her under these circumstances.

do you go out on your own and set the standards and perhaps suffer the financial consequenses, or do you fall in line with everybody else?

personally speaking if i lived in your area my son would be in your club

[seienchin]

I'd arrange a one-match between little Johnny and my student!

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by seienchin

I'd arrange a one-match between little Johnny and my student!

with glass embedded knuckle wraps i trust?--[for voortigen]

[hasbeen]

only joking voortigen !

[Spirit]

Hasbeen,
Like all good ideas, their is a personal twist that gets them started.
I talked it over with my youth instructor last night, though he did see it as a good idea, it would obsoletely effect retention 100% in his eyes.

But I guess that is a business decision I must make someday.
As for now, when we open the new dojo in the locale health club, I think we will scale back a bit on the intensity and keep all 5 kyu colored belts and possible add 2 colored belts for the tiny tots (3-5) kids.

Personally I'm looking to take the focus away from getting a new belt as a accomplishment and put the focus back on the skills and knowledge.

As for any one rank sparring against the other, the rule has always been (and if any of you reading this don't know this rule you need to)... The lowest rank makes the pace of the fight, if they are sparring with light contact then the higher rank reciprocates to them, if the lower rank "tries" to hit the higher rank hard then they will get hit hard back.
If a higher rank gets popped from a lower rank, it is that higher ranks fail for not blocking!!!
And as I always tell the students when they spar with me, "I will hit you" as hard as you "try" to hit me. So think of what direction you wish this sparring session is to go in.

Karate is so much ego like all sports these days and every parent wishes to see their child get their next colored belt. As do so many of the new teen/adult students.
Not patting myself on the back, but we never made much of getting a new belt. It was more of accomplishing a new technique or being able to go that much longer against a better fight that was seen a something to congratulate someone about.
So I guest that since no one was ever congratulated for making the next belt in the dojo, it has rubbed off on me as seeing it as no big deal...


I'm sure Oyama had something in mind when he went from wht, grn, brn (Oyama dojo) to wht, blu, yel, grn, brn to wht, org, blu, yel, grn, brn

I guess time will tell.

As for Jr's.
Me I'm against it but I have compromised with my youth instructor to 16 for anyone to go for Shodan, No Jr Shodan-ho though.
We all did our waiting in our old dojo, many of the 16 + students did and today they all say it was better to wait for 18.
I now look back at my old Sensei's dojo they do have Shodan-ho and have had it for many years.
The quality of the students have dropped 90% and it is a game of getting a belt not retaining knowledge and skill.

But we all have different oppinions on what is best or correct in this matter, so it is best if each do what fits them best in their dojo that they run.

[hasbeen]

Originally Posted by Spirit

Hasbeen,
Like all good ideas, their is a personal twist that gets them started.
I talked it over with my youth instructor last night, though he did see it as a good idea, it would obsoletely effect retention 100% in his eyes.

But I guess that is a business decision I must make someday.
As for now, when we open the new dojo in the locale health club, I think we will scale back a bit on the intensity and keep all 5 kyu colored belts and possible add 2 colored belts for the tiny tots (3-5) kids.

Personally I'm looking to take the focus away from getting a new belt as a accomplishment and put the focus back on the skills and knowledge.

As for any one rank sparring against the other, the rule has always been (and if any of you reading this don't know this rule you need to)... The lowest rank makes the pace of the fight, if they are sparring with light contact then the higher rank reciprocates to them, if the lower rank "tries" to hit the higher rank hard then they will get hit hard back.
If a higher rank gets popped from a lower rank, it is that higher ranks fail for not blocking!!!
And as I always tell the students when they spar with me, "I will hit you" as hard as you "try" to hit me. So think of what direction you wish this sparring session is to go in.

Karate is so much ego like all sports these days and every parent wishes to see their child get their next colored belt. As do so many of the new teen/adult students.
Not patting myself on the back, but we never made much of getting a new belt. It was more of accomplishing a new technique or being able to go that much longer against a better fight that was seen a something to congratulate someone about.
So I guest that since no one was ever congratulated for making the next belt in the dojo, it has rubbed off on me as seeing it as no big deal...


I'm sure Oyama had something in mind when he went from wht, grn, brn (Oyama dojo) to wht, blu, yel, grn, brn to wht, org, blu, yel, grn, brn

I guess time will tell.

As for Jr's.
Me I'm against it but I have compromised with my youth instructor to 16 for anyone to go for Shodan, No Jr Shodan-ho though.
We all did our waiting in our old dojo, many of the 16 + students did and today they all say it was better to wait for 18.
I now look back at my old Sensei's dojo they do have Shodan-ho and have had it for many years.
The quality of the students have dropped 90% and it is a game of getting a belt not retaining knowledge and skill.

But we all have different oppinions on what is best or correct in this matter, so it is best if each do what fits them best in their dojo that they run.

i think your students are very lucky to be training under you.