Teaching self defence - getting the balance right - Page 2

**Mikemok1981** · 04-09-2008, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu! Dent,

I would definately leave it until the student is technically sound though. Fine motor skills fall apart under pressure, so anything not ingrained is unreliable under stress.

Gary

Hence the omnipresent school yard "Windmill" punch?

Honestly I've never felt that kind of nervous energy before a fight like that. I guess that comes from growing up with a younger brother who was physically larger than I am. Fights tended to be a thing you live with. So when confronted either in competition or in a real life situation I always get this odd calm that comes over me and I become very calculating. I have to do things like bungee jumping or motocross to get that amped up adrenaline feeling.

seienchin · 04-09-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikemok1981

Hence the omnipresent school yard "Windmill" punch?

Honestly I've never felt that kind of nervous energy before a fight like that. I guess that comes from growing up with a younger brother who was physically larger than I am. Fights tended to be a thing you live with. So when confronted either in competition or in a real life situation I always get this odd calm that comes over me and I become very calculating. I have to do things like bungee jumping or motocross to get that amped up adrenaline feeling.

Osu Mikemok -you remind me of a very funny thing that happened to a friend of mine - the illustration being that what shocks/stuns you very much depends on where you have come from.

A friend of mine was working in an old-people's home. On this particular day, she was assigned to the mens showering, and her partner called in sick. she had to shower and dress 30 old men, in varying stages of dementia and frailty.

After that exhausting day, she was walking home, and was confronted by a fairly "excited" flasher. She sighed, looked as his "flash", then looked him straight in the eye and said "Look mate, I've washed, dried, and hung out to dry 30 of those today...now just put it away and take it home:!!

His excitement dissipated immediately, and he turned and fled.

What could root one person to the spot in shock and terror can have a totally different effect on another. The tricky thing is that none of us can possiby know how we will react.

I have also heard of a style where part of the grading requirement is an out of dojo "mugging" at a time and place that will be unknown to the student, but arranged by their sensei. - but you'd need to be pretty sure your students had been trained in the use of non-maiming force. I always thought this was pretty risky, and even though it was told to me by a proponent of the style who had just done that particular grading, I was never really sure whether to believe it.

GJEChamberlain · 04-09-2008, 09:39 PM

Osu! Mikemok1981,

Fantastic! Regular exposure has desensitised you and taught you to use adrenaline to your advantage. That's the stage we all should aim for.

I was like that after a few weeks on the door. Taking someone down or out was 'normal' so to speak. It was the same firefighting. When I first joined ladders made me nervous, but after a while I was on a high reach rescue squad.

Trouble is, if you don't keep doing scary things it's like any other trainable thing, it fades. The last confrontation I had involved four twats in a car when I was walking with my wife. I'm not sure if it's because she was there, but although I dealt with things in my normal restrained manner (not) I did feel the effects of adrenal dump later.

Also, I started climbing again recently and felt the old dry mouth again ....

Moral is, train hard to desensitise yourself, and then keep topping this up, even when you stop competing or fighting for real. (I'm an old man now - I should know better!)

Gary

GJEChamberlain · 04-09-2008, 09:42 PM

Osu! Seienchin,

Is that for real? How daft is that? Arranging a mugging - I don't know how they could make that safe and reliable. Serve the instructor right if he got a right good shoeing.

Gary

vapor · 04-09-2008, 09:43 PM

Not to mention how easily that could go wrong, in so many ways...

vapor

**Mikemok1981** · 04-09-2008, 09:45 PM

I cant imagine that kind of "mugging" grading going well. Not only is there the ever present danger of the student over reacting, there's also the underlying danger of the student under reacting to an actual mugging. Add in the hilarity factor of some passer by calling the cops and that thing has got bad idea written all over it.

**jcbel** · 04-10-2008, 03:55 AM

Nevermind the passerby calling the cops, what if they decide to be a sheepdog (see combat ethics thread) and kick the crud out of the midnight mugger?

Dent · 04-10-2008, 08:15 AM

Osu!

I'm guessing that gun ownership is severely restricted in this area? If not...

Osu!

**jcc** · 04-10-2008, 01:00 PM

Yes, I wonder how this is arranged? Tele-mugger?? Now there´s a good business opportunity for someone!

**jcbel** · 04-10-2008, 06:23 PM

This is starting to sound like that Michael Douglas movie, "The Game"!

seienchin · 04-10-2008, 09:45 PM

Well, she said that in the final weeks leading up to your shodan grading, your sensei would just announce that "it was on"...

From that point on, the candidate had to be ready for an attack, anywhere, any time.

I only have this information second hand, and the discussion was nearly 20 years ago - so if anyone has actually done this kind of thing - please post , as you will know more than me.

I gather that sensei just picked some members of the dojo - I think it was 3 men, and they jumped her on a deserted railway platform, or something like that. Her task was to get away.

**tmd** · 04-10-2008, 11:26 PM

Sorry to be very UK centric but Gary, if you're ever thinking of running a seminar on this I would be most interested.

Dent · 04-11-2008, 04:32 AM

Osu!

Way to be PC in the lead there, TMD.

Osu!

Dent · 04-11-2008, 04:40 AM

Osu!

Just come back from a coaching course run by the township. Some good stuff in there relating primarily to other sports, but the thing that struck me was how much was expected of the coaches relative to those in lesser roles.

The parallels to this discussion where there for the making, but most importantly in my view was the breadth of skills and methodologies needed by the person taking responsibility for the welfare of those on his/ her team.

IMO, part of the responsibility of being a Karate Sensei would be to ensure that the very real threats are addressed. Case in point: I shared a ride with a wonderfully kind and warm-hearted person. When he's not behind the wheel...

His actions were aggressive, and potentially dangerous to him in the future. We discussed this in some depth, and while he understands the dangers of road rage from an intellectual standpoint, I don't believe he comprehends the seriousness of what may happen should things boil over.

This is the type of scenario that would do well to be investigated in training, because it has far more elements than just the physical responses at its core.

What are your thoughts?

Osu!

GJEChamberlain · 04-11-2008, 06:44 AM

Osu! tmd,

Thanks for that. I've no plans to teach these 'adrenal switches', but recommend instead you contact someone like John Skillen. I know how to do it, but he's really got this down to a fine art so you'd be better learning from him.

His site is John Skillen

Sorry if that's not helping much!

Gary

**tmd** · 04-11-2008, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu! tmd,

Thanks for that. I've no plans to teach these 'adrenal switches', but recommend instead you contact someone like John Skillen. I know how to do it, but he's really got this down to a fine art so you'd be better learning from him.

His site is John Skillen

Sorry if that's not helping much!

Gary

Thanks for this am going to try and get along to some of his seminars, I'm sure I did some training under him years ago but my memory is shot full of holes so who knows could have been someone else called John.

As someone who as tried a good few MA styles over the years I've been taught a variety of this kind of stuff, some good some dangerous and some outright bad, as the main man always said I use what is useful

- but as a wannabe instructor I believe you should always try and be current with your students and I'm sure you'd all agree that some of the ways we learned 20 odd years ago could get you in trouble now, a bit like first aid you can't even give them a bloody plaster now!

PS: Best defense against a Road Rage attack; wait till they are in range, then hit them with your door and drive off! (need good adrenaline control for this move though coz if you freeze or don't give it 100%y you're just opening the door for them

) .My preferred choice; Best avoidance technique for RR, always make sure you can see the bottom of the wheels of the vehicle in front as this means you have a clear escape route and cannot be boxed in - I'm sure others have others but Dents story just reminded me of this, was actually taught this at a seminar back in the early 90's when it was becoming an issue.

**DKKC** · 04-16-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu! DKKC

I'm sure you understand what I mean - just expanding it out for others that still think normal training covers all. Don't think I'm talking down or insulting your intelligence!

Don't worry Gary - your post wasn't insulting at all - it was a very good post!!

Seienchin,

I've never had to pass a self defence test as part of my grading (not in the way your friend has) but I have been involved in some unusual training sessions. Just for loughs here's how this works:

The participants are divided into 2 groups - attackers & defenders - attackers do not talk to deffenders. The entire planet is your playground - the attckers have to attack you (up to them where, when and how) - you have to defend. If you defend successfully yuo live tyo fight another day, if not, you become an attacker. As attackers and defenders d9on't speak (ie not about this you can talk about anythung else) - you won't know if the person you're going out to a film with is still your friend or not. You have to be prepared

. Oh! No attacks in the dojo (we do need to train) or in the defender's home - that's a safe place in our game. We've running around through town, parks, forrests, hotels (had to deal with security as well!!), shopping centres, cinemas, other people's houses, schools. You would be defetead when you give up or first blood is drawn from other parts than limbs.

I have to say it's been great fun!! and taught me a lot about awareness, avoidance and staying allert. I escape most of the attacks by running away!

Hit and run, hit and run!!!

Bloke · 04-16-2008, 12:22 PM

All this talk of pre arranged attacks reminds me of the Pink Panther Movies with Inspector Clouseau and Kato.

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