Teaching self defence - getting the balance right

[Dent]

Osu!

I'm not sure if this is still on topic (Mods and Gary, please decide if you want this elsewhere.), but what about the ethics of teaching confrontation-related training.

I've seen some very good training, and I've seen some that will get the trainee killed. Simple as that.

IMO, there are far too many people who think that their twice-a-week class is going to prepare them for an actual confrontation. The first time we held a Woofing session (RBT including verbal assaults), I saw some otherwise physically competent people blow out like cheap light bulbs. The pressure of the verbal ran their adrenalin up well past the red line.

Throwing in padded weapons was another reality shift. White t-shirts and red markers made all the fancy knife defense training a joke.

All in all, I have survived those street fights and other altercations I have had the misfortune to encounter more through luck and conditioning than exceptional skill. And not being very bright probably helped too.

Can we still be considered training a valid martial art if we don't include realistic circumstances in our training?

Osu!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Dent,

I started doing this type of stuff in the early 90's on Geoff Thompson courses and I would best describe it as very - no extremely - uncomfortable. Even though I had been there and got blood on the T shirt, so to speak, his drills made me feel physically sick with the amount of adrenaline they got going. It's the combat equivalent of 0 - 60 in about 1.2 seconds. Also, fighting people ranging from doormen to boxers to judoka took me right out of my comfort zone, and I refer back to a former post where I suggested everyone needs this kind of pressure training occasionally to find out their worst ranges and emotional weaknesses. Once you find them, it's no good sticking a band-aid on it or slinking back to the dojo and hoping it never happens for real. As Churchill said, "Many men stumble over the truth, but then get up, dust themselves off and carry on as if nothing has happened" You've got to work on them if you want to grow.

The final answer is probably to keep reminding yourself why you started training. If it was self-protection you sought but you now find yourself doing endless kata and points fighting, clearly the emphasis has shifted. If you're happy with that, no problem! If you're not, you owe it to yourself to step out of that comfort zone. If your instructor can't take you there, invest in courses with reputable instructors. Geoff Thompson rarely teaches now but if you get the chance to go it's superb. I've got John Skillen just down the road who is awesome, and there are many others. Lee Morrison etc etc.

This doesn't mean normal training is not effective, far from it, but stepping into the fear of the unexpected is very valuable indeed. If your instructor tells you his / their way alone covers every possible scenario (particularly if you join the Trainee Instructors program for only £2000 a year etc) I'd be very suspicious. Most club training is a compromise and in truth knockdown or full-contact is a really great starting point. After a while though I doubt if anyone feels sick to the stomach for three days before going! If you want to be sure you are better prepared to handle the emotional turmoil that comes with the rough stuff, I'm afraid normal sessions rarely cut it.

I do this occasionally with SP work, but not at the dojo as anyone there for 'Sport' 'Budo' or 'Self-development' (all noble objectives though they are) usually finds it emotionally quite upsetting. People - even tough men - are often tearful and shaking after real fights. Adrenaline is both a blessing and a curse so learning how to both access it and stopping it overwelming you is a huge part of the jigsaw.

I coach those interested in more restricted groups.

Gary

[tmd]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

Can we still be considered training a valid martial art if we don't include realistic circumstances in our training?

Osu!

In a word No, if you don't train with realism at least occasionally then you ain't ready for reality when it says you spilled it's beer .

[Dent]

Osu!

Excellent points, Gentlemen. So, if we're in agreement on this level, are we not obligated to offer the more realistic training to our newbies? Or will we lose everyone to the nice guys down the road?

Back to the balancing game. I wonder how much fun Plato would have with this topic?

Osu!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Dent,

LOL - fun indeed.

I also think there was probably a line lost in the bible. After "turn the other cheek" it should have read, "and if the scumbag hit's that one, go to town on him"

Regarding reality training, up to you, but for the reasons above I offer it in smaller more focussed groups, and only then to those seeking that bit extra. Giving this to beginners can be very offputting, in the same way my boxing coach tells me he loses 80% of his new members the first time they get a bloody nose!

It amazes me the number of people learning SP (and MA) who think there's a nice easy way to stop someone twice their weight and extremely aggressive. I tend to get students fit and skilful (at least they can run then!) before introducing this type of thing.

Gary

[Dent]

Osu! Gary,

My problem with explaining it to others.
1) There is no quick-fix, one-size-fits-all solution.
2) There will be pain.

That's more than enough to send folk packing.

I think that the majority of people are sold on the martial arts as a form of defense, and they'd rather suspend reason than question what is being taught.

"Jump-spinning axe kick in a phone booth you say? Of course, Sensei/ Sifu/ Maestre/ Sa Bu Nim etc etc etc. "

IMO the sparring is the dessert we get if we've been good with all our Kihon and Kata. Sometimes we don't want to eat our leafy greens though, because they don't taste like cake. Application of the technique is very important, and under all the wrong circumstances we can conceive too.

Just my opinion.

Osu!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! Dent,

I can only agree. If you want to keep the dojo going and attract new members though, I'd emphasise the 'nice' stuff first. This is not being deceitful, as many only really want a good sweat without pain and, let's be frank, they provide revenue that's keeps things going.

All training - not just karate - involves compromise. If someone joined a gym and said they wanted a 1000lb squat and to be running a marathon, they'd hope the manager would be honest and explain it can't be done simultaneously.

In much the same way, I'd love a Ferrari, but taking the kids to school soon buggered that idea up. In the dojo, balancing the needs of the majority has to be a major consideration, hence seperate classes for RBT.

Gary

[DKKC]

Another problem I have noticed with many students (and at some level instructors) is that many times they don't regard self defence as a skill. They think that if they seen/showed a technique once that's enough - they will be able to perform it should they need it. I find this puzzling as people don't have a problem repeating kihon, kata or even competition fighting techniques again and again, yet when it comes down to self defence they treat it as something on the side!

With beginners we start with the application of the syllabus blocks and then working on getting to grips (the 'nice' stuff, as Gary put it) - and one of the things we emphasize is that you always hit the person before you attempt getting out of the grip, to soften the up a bit and insist beginners mimic an attack to the throat, eyes or groin (to begin with) - more to fix that into their memories than to actually teach them to hit hard and fast and be vicious!

This works well if you have the time to work the more vicious stuff with the advanced students only, but what do you do if people start training because of self defence and that's all they are interested in?

My Sensei has been asked a couple of years a go to do a 10 week self defence course through the Adult Learning courses - or something similar -via the local council. It was open to all residents, though numbers were limited. I've attended a few of those sessions with Sensei to help out. In the first session we ended up teaching them to say 'NO' (basically) and project some confidence! Every little thing made them giggle (blokes as well not just the women) and many of them thought that if attacked it was better to hope/pray that the attacker won't hurt you to much rather than trying to a) avoid the situation and b) attract attention to yourself and don't be a pushover really.
It was eye-opening for us as much as it was for them.

[Dent]

Osu! Gary,

I guess it's probably better to have them in a real Dojo where they have the opportunity to learn SD at some point than have them wander over to somewhere where that will never be an option.

I do think that if I could have a Ferrari, the kids could learn to walk to school.

Osu!

[Dent]

Osu! DKKC,

Originally Posted by DKKC

Another problem I have noticed with many students (and at some level instructors) is that many times they don't regard self defence as a skill. They think that if they seen/showed a technique once that's enough - they will be able to perform it should they need it. I find this puzzling as people don't have a problem repeating kihon, kata or even competition fighting techniques again and again, yet when it comes down to self defence they treat it as something on the side!

Yes! Is it that they are turning a blind eye, or do they really think that SD will be learned by osmosis?

Osu!

[Mikemok1981]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu! DKKC,



Yes! Is it that they are turning a blind eye, or do they really think that SD will be learned by osmosis?

Osu!

I think for the most part, most of them have seen too many movies and dont realize how real fights tend to go.

[seienchin]

I've pulled these posts into a separate thread out of the combat ethics thread. Great discussion - keep it up.

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! DKKC,

It's not the physical skills that I am cautious to show people, but the adrenaline work. When people are confronted by unexpected violence as opposed to anticipated like a Tournament etc (and god knows that's often bad enough!) the body's first response is a MASSIVE jolt of adrenaline and other chemicals. People who have never experienced this mistake it for fear and are very likely to either freeze and get blown over, or bottle it and capitulate. (Note: 'Fight or Flight' is usually refered to and may be accurate for mammals, but humans calculate risk in microseconds so 'Freeze' and 'Capitulate' need to be added into the list of probable responses exhibited when faced with danger) Not a problem if the person wants your mobile. You bottle it, hand it over, get a new one and thank your lucky stars they didn't cut you for the fun of it.

If the motive is other than robbery though, compliance may not be an option. A rapist will not play fair if you just give in, or a gang out to batter someone won't take pity if you start trembling and piss yourself. For these scenario's where you have to fight back to have even a chance of staying in one piece, learning to handle adrenaline and its ugly cousin FEAR starts with drills that stimulate that emotional response. What doormen call the "wow factor" is like all the pre-fight nerves you've ever had in your life arriving together in about half a second. Not pleasant! Something extremely painful may be very likely to happen unless you can hold it together and keep moving properly! As a useful side effect, by using these drills you can also learn to control your attackers adrenaline. The odd jolt here and there can get people who want to fight you to bottle it because their adrenaline is now over the redline.

As an example, the doorman I talked about earlier would wait until someone wanted to 'go' and then calmly find an ash tray for his cigarette. The message this sent his attacker was "this won't take long" and then coupled with his reputation the would be attackers adrenal pump was now spinning at 24,000rpm until it literally imploded, along with their bad intent. They usually couldn't back down and get away from him quickly enough.

Different instructors use different terms and methods, but anything that takes you into this red zone is usually mentally and physically horrible - hence the reason I don't do it with students unless they ask, basically! This is not to say 'normal' training doesn't help, but that's only going to get you so far. You may well be able to handle 95% of situations, but the last 5% carries the greatest risk so it makes sense to prepare. Remember, even if you are very skilful, if you collapse psychologically when this adrenaline / fear rush hits, it's all for nothing.

Of course some are cool as ice no matter what the circumstances, but these lucky characters are in the minority. Here lies another problem. If your instructor is an aggresive Alpha male type who never experiences this adrenaline / fear rush (unlikely but possible) they may simply be unaware of this response in lesser mortals and not see the need to teach how to deal with it. Simply shouting "Fighto" repeatedly or telling you to "Toughen up!" in the dojo doesn't help!

This adrenaline work is not easy to learn or do, so please take sound instruction and advice if you want to take it further and add this sort of thing to your armoury. Once you learn to ride the storm, you can control your fear and use the extra power and speed adrenaline provides. As mentioned, if done properly it's also a hugely potent weapon for breaking your opponents intent. A mugger used to instilling fear into his victims may be totally unprepared to have his own adrenaline red-lining.

Interesting stuff this. Hope I've explained it a bit better.

Gary

[DKKC]

Gary,

I understand completely what you are saying and agree with you. Unfortunately, as you said, it is extremely difficult to teach people to cope with the addrenaline dump. However, I believe that prior to getting to that level of training, you can still give your students a fighting chance by teaching them good skills (and keeping them updated), good fitness and stamina (fitter bodies cope better with addrenaline) and a general training environment where they are pushed out of their comfort zone on a regular basis.

It's better than doing nothing, ignoring the risks and pretending that it could never happen to you. I don't believe that we can be prepared for 100% of the situations that might arise anyway, I believe that luck has a part to play, but the less yuo need it, the better.

Well ... either that, or we all need our own Cato YouTube - Pink Panther - Clouseau vs. Kato

[DKKC]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu! DKKC,

Yes! Is it that they are turning a blind eye, or do they really think that SD will be learned by osmosis?

Osu!

Osu Dent

I think that with many clubs the number of gradings and competitions and other social events have shifted the focus away from self defence. There are more and more kids who(s parents) are concerned more about the next stripe on their belt or shiny plastic trophy than learning to protect themselves and equally more adults concerned about the same things or even just turning up at the dojo as part of a healthy lifestyle and to get out of the house. It is very difficult to teach SD to people who are not particularly interested in learning it. And how many students want to hear at every training session about the dangerous world we live in and how we need to be prepared (going back to the sheep being in denial). And some instructors, who came through the ranks of such a dojo, will teach what they have been taught as students.

I think ...

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu! DKKC

I'm sure you understand what I mean - just expanding it out for others that still think normal training covers all. Don't think I'm talking down or insulting your intelligence!

Other reasons for doing this in different locations is the very real need for students to get 'positive' feedback from dojo practise. Being somewhere else for the nasty stuff doesn't compromise those feelings - which are neccessary to retain motivation. People don't usually want 'ugly' in the dojo, they want stylish. They certainly don't want in yer face ranting and finger poking from a psycho look-alike that makes their knees go wobbly.

I've seen high ranking karate-ka with reputations as big as their cars walk out of these type of sessions as they just couldn't hack it. "Martial Arts are about refining your character, not this" is the usual excuse for quitting, but not coping with adrenaline and fear - even in a training environment - blows that argument right out of the water. What better way is there to refine your character than testing it under pressure?

This is seriously good for you if it's done right.

Gary

[Nix]

My students have always been thrilled when I teach them some self-defence. It's out of the ordinary, and a great break from the usual schedule, while still beeing relevant. This is ordinary SD (they are only kids), though, but still useable in a real situation. On a similar matter, it's not far from sabaki practice to self-defence. The two are related, and can easily overlap.

[Dent]

Osu!

Thanks to Seienchin for mov