Karate-Business-Ethics, living well and not losing your soul

[meguro]

I am approaching this topic as the customer. This is what I want. I am willing to pay the prevailing market rate but appreciate any discounts. At the same time, I am thinking about what my approach would be-what if I were running the show. How would I make a successful karate business without losing my soul or my home?

I notice that MMA, BJJ, and the Crossfit phenomenon and wonder what happened to the Kyokushin phenomenon. (If you live in Japan, Brazil, Russia Canada you can ignore this part.) Why aren't new Kyokushin dojo breaking ground? Where are the new branch chiefs? Kyokushin has so much to offer. It's like the best friend of the love-sick star of some formulaic chic-flick: the overlooked Mr./Mrs. Right.

Before I dump my ideas on you, I ask you to consider what you would do.

[Dorsini]

Preframe them to think it is a service, not a business. Let them know that there is timeless, efforts of education that an instructor has to go endure. That if they have relectancy, then you should try to work out something. Let them try it for a month, so they will not fear of being bound by a contract.

[tmd]

Karate-Business-Ethics, living well and not losing your soul - do it for the right reasons because you love it not to earn big bucks, if you do make good cash from it that's fine coz it means you're way is working but be honest with yourself - if it feels wrong it is, if you feel you're ripping people off you probably are if you're not giving value for money you'll know it - if you had a soul to begin with.

[sokaiya]

Originally Posted by meguro

Why aren't new Kyokushin dojo breaking ground? Where are the new branch chiefs?

This is a good question. At my dojo (KKNY), the only students who have made Kyokushin Karate their life are Uchideshi from another Country. Beyond the typical demonstration at a Japanese festival, there advertisement has been limited to a couple of articles in a Japanese newspaper or the once in a blue moon commercial on Japanese TV. It's funny because although they advertise to "Japanese", it's the American who see's the ad that comes to join.

[meguro]

Know your market.

When I first arrived in Japan, I was asked by my new dojo mates about the popularity of Kyokushin in the USA. I was sad to report that Kyokushin is not popular at all and enjoys only a small following in large urban centers with an expat Japanese population. I attributed this lack of popularity to a widespread disinterest in hard training and fighting and also to a litigious environment that made contact taboo. Oh well, it can't be helped.

On reflection, this is wrong. The popularity of UFC, Muay Thai, MMA, not to mention football, wrestling, and boxing clearly show that Americans aren't shy about hard training and fighting. If anything, there is more demand than supply.

Oh yeah, you might counter, so where are all those students banging on my door to train? Good question.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by meguro

I am approaching this topic as the customer. This is what I want. I am willing to pay the prevailing market rate but appreciate any discounts. At the same time, I am thinking about what my approach would be-what if I were running the show. How would I make a successful karate business without losing my soul or my home?

I notice that MMA, BJJ, and the Cross fit phenomenon and wonder what happened to the Kyokushin phenomenon. (If you live in Japan, Brazil, Russia Canada you can ignore this part.) Why aren't new Kyokushin dojo breaking ground? Where are the new branch chiefs? Kyokushin has so much to offer. It's like the best friend of the love-sick star of some formulaic chic-flick: the overlooked Mr./Mrs. Right.

Before I dump my ideas on you, I ask you to consider what you would do.

The Kyokushin phenomenon really never happened, yes the world tourney got some press [Japan] but never did it become main stream or truly big and well known.


Kyokushin has over the years broken into over 80 styles. Many Sensei's left Kyokushin for many reasons [ones we need not get into]. The fact that they all did mean that Kyokushin is still growing just under several banners.
As well when one talks about Kyokushin you are talking in general about a style but in reality you are also talking about ALL the people who controlled it and forged the rules, marketing and other actions that grew it as well drove people away from it!
A branch chief does not mean one is knowledgeable in Kyokushin, nor does it mean they are not... It just means one has been either asked to be one and paid their dues for it or paid their dues to be come one
PS dues is $$$$.
In the 70's 5 different B/C's came to our dojo at different times only 1 returned yearly the others seen our Sensei as less than desirable and he was not willing to pay for their knowledge.

So like all things in life not all things are roses or the grass is aways greener on the other side.
Either way, one does not need to be part of the IKO's or be a B/C or even call their Karate Kyokushin to train hard follow the path that Sosai like to see his students strive for.
The only thing that matters is that one is true to themselves, the art, and their students....
Karate is still growing 50 plus years as it hit our shores [USA] Kyokushin was just one small style in it and though we may feel it is the best way. We need to open to all things and not be so negative to others who see karate in a different light than you

[meguro]

Originally Posted by Spirit

A branch chief does not mean one is knowledgeable in Kyokushin, nor does it mean they are not... It just means one has been either asked to be one and paid their dues for it or paid their dues to be come one
PS dues is $$$$.
In the 70's 5 different B/C's came to our dojo at different times only 1 returned yearly the others seen our Sensei as less than desirable and he was not willing to pay for their knowledge.

Osu! Spirit. A lot has changed since the 70's, especially Kyokushin. Tadashi Nakamura, in his The Human Face of Karate, talked about the rapid and ungoverned expansion of Kyokushin in the US during this time. What we are seeing now in the US is the opposite- no growth. In Japan, and in other parts of the world, notably Russia, Brazil, Canada and the EU there appears to be controlled growth.

Today, Kyokushin dojo, at least in the the big orgs, are not run by folks who decide they would like to set up shop. It would be as if I decided to open-up a doughnut shop based on the qualification that I had a classic glazed and a cup of coffee. Usually, dojo instructors/knockdown competitors, transition from competition to class instruction to small branch operation under the auspice of a shihan. It is one way to deal with counterfeit grades and dubious pedigrees. The general public may not know about a certain instructor's qualifications, but the various honbu would.

Karate is still growing 50 plus years as it hit our shores [USA] Kyokushin was just one small style in it and though we may feel it is the best way. We need to open to all things and not be so negative to others who see karate in a different light than you

Have I been negative to people who disagree with my perspectives in this thread? I don't understand, I just got started. I'm sincere about wanting to hear other perspectives. If you read something here that was negative, please point it out to me so that we can have a better understanding.

Originally Posted by tmd

do it for the right reasons because you love it not to earn big bucks, if you do make good cash from it that's fine coz it means you're way is working but be honest with yourself

The best job is doing what you love and being able to make living from it . Loving to rip people off is something else.

Originally Posted by sokaiya

It's funny because although they advertise to "Japanese", it's the American who see's the ad that comes to join.

Advertising to the Japanese expat is like preaching to the choir, apart from letting the Japanese know the dojo address it does little to bring in a future homegrown champion. The real growth will come from Americans who discover what the Japanese might already know about Kyokushin.

What do home sellers do when they put their houses on the market? They redo the kitchens and baths. A small investment reaps huge rewards. Most dojo don't understand this. Succesful companies plow back a portion of earnings into R&D, upgrade facilities, benchmark. Doctors must continue their education to stay on top of the latest medical advance. What are dojo operators not doing that their more succcesful competitors are? Note, competitors are not other dojo but all businesses that compete for the public's discretionary income.

Getting back to the housing market analogy, you had better have stainless steel kitchen appliances and granite counter tops if you wish to make a sale in this market. Every time prospective student walks in the dojo is a chance to make a sale. If no effort has been made to upgrade the facilities, a potential student was lost. It is a fact of life that first impressions count.

[chen3141]

How about the popularity of karate itself? If you ask any average American, they could easily say they have heard of karate or kung fu or any major martial arts (tae kwon do, judo, etc.). But they can't say they understand the difference of Kyokushinkai from Goju-ryu or Hung Gar vs Ba Gua . I would say the popularity of MMA (and Kung Fu movies) would help build Martial arts in a wider sense, but the problem is you find more McDojo's over real ones.

I think that people go into martial arts looking to train in ANY martial arts, if they studied Martial Arts to find which style is right for them then the styles with hard training would appeal to teens, the ones that promote self-control to kids, the ones that would promote strengthening the body and self defense to adults. To me Kyokushinkai has the parts for all ages.

The other thing I see is you'll find more Tae Kwon Do vs any other style out there. For every Kyokushinkai dojo they'll be 50 Tae Kwon Do ones.

[tmd]

Kyokushin will never be for everyone if you're into World Domination (see Nix for details) then choose an easier sell, I don't know something that looks flash, is not so brutal in the training, oh and is an Olympic sport .

The first aspect to knowing your market is knowing the size of your market and setting your expectations accordingly I sell A/C in the UK so I'm not going to shift as much stock as the average heating engineer is going to sell boilers because we have a climate that needs more heating than cooling, more people are looking for general fitness and a feeling that they are doing something positive and maybe learning to protect themselves.

What the thread asks is how to make a living without loosing your soul not how do we get more bums on seats - there are a lot of other threads to do with marketing etc that cover this.

I don't want this to derail the debate into a this is better than that but I do think Kyokushin can be taught as a way of increasing your general fitness, providing a good system for self defense, teaching awareness and with a gradual introduction of full contact training an aspect missing from most other systems, the reality of being hit, and if you want too both semi and full contact tournaments. What more would you want from a Martial Art?

The problem is that our image is too knockdown based (especially on you tube) and that a lot of people are put off seeking out our dojos as they don't want to be tough tournament fighters and this is all they see, it's not what I see, it's not what I know, but I walked into my first dojo blind and have learned it from the inside what we have to think about is our public face especially on the biggest reasearch tool of them all the WWW.

[Spirit]

Well in the town that I "hopefully" will open a dojo is a town of 44K, It has a Kyokushin dojo as well TWD and a Kenpo. So if and when we open Kyokushin will be the dominate style. Now com pairing the 2 Kyokushin dojo's will be very different as well

Can one make a living teaching Kyokushin, I would say Yes as I'm banking on it as I drop all my cash into it.
I can say this, one should take the whole K/D and leg kicking a bit slow on the new student, that is teach them karate basics while teaching the desire to drive and increase their drive to improve and work harder at working out hard.
Then introduce K/D in steps once the student enjoys their training in karate.
Kyokushin style training does not need to be washed down or altered, just slow it down into steps. Possible if one works into it rather than dumping a load on a new student they will stick around longer to learn that they would like this type of sparring and can actually do it without being taken through the ringer.

Now is the growth of the style important? I really can't see why it is, and not sure if more Kyokushin type dojo's matter.

But doing Kyokushin without selling out, sure it is easily done, it is a matter of approach. Build the students in steps and educate them and train them accordingly to their age. Do not expect new to the art to be foaming at the mouth to get banged up. Sure a few know exactly what they "think" they want as they walk in the door. But most of those types are gone in a few months.

Sosai once said, I have plenty of fighters, yet I would not let any of them teach. What I don't have is great teachers.
I think what he was getting to is that yes Kyokushin is well known for K/D yet Kyokushin itself is a Karate system not just a fight art. One does need to learn Kata, S/D, Kihon's, sparring and ideologies etc.

[meguro]

Originally Posted by tmd

What the thread asks is how to make a living without loosing your soul not how do we get more bums on seats - there are a lot of other threads to do with marketing etc that cover this.

Yes, but I'd also like to get more bums on seats.

Knowing how to price the product being sold is key. If you can't cover fixed costs, you can't run a business. If you aren't reinvesting in the business by keeping facilities clean and updated, expanding when you've outgrown your location, sharing the wealth with your employees, giving back to the community, then maybe you've lost a little bit of your soul and karate has become just a job.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Spirit

Now is the growth of the style important? I really can't see why it is, and not sure if more Kyokushin type dojo's matter.

So many good points raised in this debate, to which I would add a comment on this question. Yes, the more contact-based Dojo there are out there, the bigger the presence, and the greater the understanding/ acceptance by the general public.

While the benefits of hard training Dojo are well known in a few places, most people that I meet think that all Karate is the same, and in the worst cases, think all MA are the same.

Osu!

[meguro]

Osu! The subtext in all my posts pertaining to karate is that Kyokushin (and its derivatives) is karate. (Of course there are other styles of karate, but this is afterall a Knockdown Karate Community.) Growth is important to living organisms as well as corporate entities. If you aren't growing, what are you doing?

Why not have more Kyokushin dojo? Think of the opportunity to travel, meet and train with more like-minded karateka. Shurenkan's seminar in NJ and Sato-san's a few months ago are evidence of a knockdown community that desires more interaction.

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by meguro

Yes, but I'd also like to get more bums on seats.

Knowing how to price the product being sold is key. If you can't cover fixed costs, you can't run a business. If you aren't reinvesting in the business by keeping facilities clean and updated, expanding when you've outgrown your location, sharing the wealth with your employees, giving back to the community, then maybe you've lost a little bit of your soul and karate has become just a job.

There is 2 rules of thumb on pricing be higher than your compitition and never be so cheap that people see you as you price yourself...

Filling the new dojo is difficult yet can be done with lots of hard work, trial and error.
Keep records of how people find out about you this will help you to determined which ads to run and in what media.

Remember 99% of new students do not know much or anything about style etc. EVEN if they have read something or seen .. they still come to you unknowing and open to hear what you say and open to learn about how you train. Do not over sell and degrade other s. Be honest and forthcoming you'll gain more people that way as well respect from those who don't train with you as well. Help others find a place they fit be it you or other dojo is part of your job.

Ethics is huge thing for me, a struggle I fight with daily do to cost over runs, delays and the like. You have the urge to take everyone just to cover the costs, try not to if you can.
Understand this, if you can teach a class for those who wish to train in a good dojo that will educate them as well train them without hard training/fighting that is OK and still Kyokushin.
Kyokushin is Kyokushin no matter if it drop dead training or softer , either way it is kyokushin do not be blinded by thoughts or assumptions of you have to train like a made man from Jukyu forward.
Develop students, not chase them away tiring to make them hard core from day one, that training can and will come, educate them in Karate and then In Kyokushin as they understand the goals and ethics of the style...

Covering fixed cost may not come until 6-18 months after opening the door, be ready for this.
Ads will be your key to drawing in new students until the dojo grows a student base. Keep the ads simple and direct without a lot of boasting or other ...
K.I.S.S. "keep it simple stupid"
Retention is far more important than gaining more students since it cost more to gain a new student than it does to get a new one.
The average turn around on a student is 60% so working on bringing that number down to 10-40% is as strong area you need to control.

50% of the students leave in the first 30 days. and then another 50% of the remanding students quite in the next 3-months.
So it is very important that one has a Very Strong Structured beginner program

[meguro]

Osu! Once again, solid advice on the business end of karate, Spirit!

Remember 99% of new students do not know much or anything about style etc.

I think this is worth stressing. It also supports some points I've been harping on: competition is not only other dojo; first impressions count. Potential students might be eyeing ballet studios, state-of-the-art gyms, yoga and pilates, etc. If they know nothing about karate, at least impress them with a clean, well kept environment to train in. Think of new people walking in as your first date.

Ethics is huge thing for me, a struggle I fight with daily do to cost over runs, delays and the like. You have the urge to take everyone just to cover the costs, try not to if you can.

Thank you Spirit for keeping it real. Taking care of the business end will save your soul. Struggling to keep up with the bills is hardly the kind of environement that leads to guilt-free sleep.

Keep the customer happy and all your work is done. Enthusiasm is infectious.

[Spirit]

meguro
I like the first date thinking....

I'm going to use that one!!!!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by meguro

Think of new people walking in as your first date.

Originally Posted by Spirit

meguro
I like the first date thinking....

I'm going to use that one!!!!

I'm sure there has to be a better analogy! After some of the characters I've seen walk through various Dojo doors, dating would simply be too much of a stretch of the imagination!

Osu!

[meguro]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!





I'm sure there has to be a better analogy! After some of the characters I've seen walk through various Dojo doors, dating would simply be too much of a stretch of the imagination!

Osu!

Osu! Oh jeez, Dent. Didn't foresee that interpretation. I suddenly feel. . .ill.

OK, better analogy, new people walking in as employers and it's your job interview.