Kyokushin self defense enough ?

[World War Cheese]

[quote=Kris;15819]

Originally Posted by World War Cheese

The most interesting part of this all is I'm having the same exact discussion on judoforum.com and this: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.m...c285466751fdc3 was posted recently. Now it's only one account and I don't have any evidence for it being a true story but it's more than nothing.

Sounds like a true story, and that was a street fight and not some fightclub match. BUT, if the guys would not have been drunk/high they would not have had a problem in the first place.

One reason why I prefer Judo to BJJ and KK to MT, for some reason the Japanese decided to add morals into dangerous arts that others deigned not to.

[mpeters]

Very interesting forum. I believe, like many of the other members posting, that in self defense sooner or later you will end up on the ground for what ever reason. You may be tackled, pushed, tripped, and obviously you have been hit to the ground. The point is, as my instructor has often said "the more tools you have in your toolbox the more tools you can chose from to use for any situation". So in that, I am a firm believer in cross training or learning other systems/ styles so that "your toolbox" can be full of "tools". To me what Kyokushin gives me on top of the technical and physical training is that spirit, to keep going, never give up, push until the very end. I am sure that a combination of that spirit and your "tools" would make any person a formidable foe.

[Brad]

I think over the years have a look at different martial arts i have and ive tried to incorparate all in one. Expescially in a fight situation.

[Tettsui]

In my opinion, any martial art that doesn't practice with another opponent at mid to full power doesn't work as a self defense method. Being hit or dragged around by an opponent that really wants to win, completely changes your game plan. You find out quickly what works in the real world. Doing drills are good, but you'll never be ready.

I take Kyokushin right now and I think it's okay for self defense. It's really missing the face punches. Muay Thai or boxing would be better because most people want to punch you in the face.

However, if you are talking about all round self defense, Judo is one of the best. You learn both throws and grappling/submissions. If you can dodge or take one punch, you can take them down and choke or arm bar. There's no "lucky punch" in grappling.

As for weapons self defense, it'd have to be Filipino Arnis or Eskrima. They fight each other with full contact so they know how to handle weapons. However, if someone pulled a knife on me, I'd just run...while yelling rape.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by Tettsui

Muay Thai or boxing would be better because most people want to punch you in the face.

.

I am not sure this is universally true - and I am almost certain it is not true for women's self defence. Sure, face blows are up there, but really, the situation that most women are interested in defending against is far more serious violence. Women generally don't seem to get into fisticuffs, with exchange of blows. It happens, but it isn't common. so I think that it is worth considering what people mean by self-defence. For women it is a whole different dynamic.

I also think a lot of endless debate goes on about self defence against punches to the face, but in our thousand odd members, ven amongst the men, my guess would be that, excluding those who work security, very, very few have ever had to defend against a punch to the face in a self-defence situation.

My vote therefore goes for judo/grappling/submission styles. It builds a completely different repertoire, and spatial awareness that we "stay on our pegs" kyokushin practitoners just lack. There is also something very cool about being able to put someone into an armbar and bust his elbow just as he thinks he's got you pinned down in a compromising position!

[Bloke]

Can I just say that Kyokushin is not missing face punches - knockdown is. Knockdown is also missing eye gouges, choke holds, guns, knives etc. This is because it is the sporting side of Kyokushin and it has to have rules for safety so certain techniques are prohibited - in Kyokushin no techniques are prohibited.

The problem here is that people are focussing on Knockdown and saying that is Kyokushin - its not.

[Tettsui]

Originally Posted by Bloke

Can I just say that Kyokushin is not missing face punches - knockdown is. Knockdown is also missing eye gouges, choke holds, guns, knives etc. This is because it is the sporting side of Kyokushin and it has to have rules for safety so certain techniques are prohibited - in Kyokushin no techniques are prohibited.

The problem here is that people are focussing on Knockdown and saying that is Kyokushin - its not.

The knockdown portion of Kyokushin is what actually makes it a decent self defense. Without kumite, Kyokushin would just be kihon and katas, which would just be drills. As a "self defense" method, kumite is missing the face punches which would be necessary in most real fights. I take Kyokushin and love it, but I know I'd be at a disadvantage if I fought someone who was good with their hands.

Seienchin, you're right about self defense for women being different. That's why I think Judo is the best for all round self defense. Anyone can do eye gouges and groin kicks. There's no need for practicing that. Balance against someone else is something you have to learn. If I had kids(especially girls), I'd make them take judo for sure.

It makes me think that we should define what situations for self defense we are talking about. Street fights, mugging, and sexual assault/murder all require different reactions. I'm not going to eye gouge someone who's had too much to drink and I'm also not going to kakato otoshi someone who's trying to kill me.

[Bloke]

Kihon and Kata are not just drills and never should be but I do take your point that Knockdown does add to the effectivness of defence.

[hasbeen]

kyokushin gives you enough to defend yourself against most people and get away...how far do you want to take it ?

i have always fancied a mawashi magnum but they are illegal in my country !

[alkimachos]

i think the simplest moves are the most effective in self defense!!! in dojo i'm training on self defense with kyokushin moves and i try to analyze the katas as much as i can cause i think there are many useful techniques!! at last i think that is better to know excellent 3-4 techniques than know many techniques not so well..

[Kyokugen]

at the first place I learn kyokushin just because of my curiosity but then I become addicted to it, after years of training I start to get the essence of kyokushin, kyokushin is not all about self defense nor killing technique, the most important is how you connect your body mind and spirit become one, you'll need deep spiritual to get this.
If you train just for fighting or tournament or just self defense, you just get the half of the essence

"Remember. Power become useless when worthless fear block it, be mentally prepared"

[tmd]

I have trained in other arts and believe in the BL mantra of use what is useful but ask myself why people feel they need to cross train for self defense, for competing in other styles of fighting sure but for self defense? I'm not so convinced.

To my mind to survive a street attack you firstly need awareness of the situation, be aware of danger zones and use your mental abilities to talk your way out. Secondly if it comes to a physical assault have 100% conviction in your abilities, commitment to the techniques you employ and above all speed, do not hold back - I think training and competing in knockdown helps with this as we are attacking 'for real'. Most street fights last seconds but man they're tiring which is why studying a system based on physical as well as mental ability helps, a trained athlete stands more of a chance than a lazy martial artist when it comes right down to it. Use what comes to you instinctively, if you have to think about it it will be to late which is why repetition in kihon and free sparring are so important.

You're fighting for survival not a trophy so fight with all you have and as a strong and trained martial artist you stand a better chance than if you'd done nothing but in my humble opinion no more chance than if you'd studied a hundred different arts.

With regard to the ground fighting thing I've been hearing this statistic for years but would not recommend that in the street you ever spend much time on the ground. If you're working a door and someone jabs out an arm you can lock it out to show them you are in cotrol but if they start fighting back I'm going to strike them to try and put them down rather than try and wrestle them to the ground.

I have not had a street confrontation that turned physical for years (I'm a father of 3 for Gods sake I don't do that kind of thing anymore ) of the times it turned physical in the past rarely was it with a lone attacker so the last thing I'm going to do is go to ground as the guys buds are just gonna stomp all over me - how many people who've been attacked in the street die on their feet compared to on the ground? Me for one, I ain't going down.

[Tameshigiri]

SELF DEFENSE. GOSHIN JITSU.

CHECK THIS IS KARATE BOOK.

PAGE 276 YOU CAN SEE ARM LOCK AND SOME GROUND SELF DEFENSE.



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[Tameshigiri]

WE DO GOSHIN JISTSU TRAINING ON SATURDAYS.


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[milwaukeecop2]

As a police officer of 8 years, I have taken many aggravated battery reports. Two that stand out in my mind, a knockdown karate fighter(blackbelt) got taken to the ground by two guys and beat unconscience, and a Judo blackbelt beat up by three guys, left with some lacerations on his head needing 5 staples.
If your facing multiple assailents, your going to the ground!, The Judoka was lucky enough to be able to get back to his feet and run.
another thing, a knife will kill you standing, just as much on the ground.
you need to know striking, you need to know grappling, but there is no magic answer.
Martail arts can give you an edge in combat, but not a promise of victory!

[SHIDOKANATLANTA]

what it really boils down to is who one has attacking them. if you get attacked, most likely it will be by someone who has experience at hurting people (and no aware they are going to be attacked). fighting (sport and non sport) have the element of surprise. you never no what's going to happen. hit hard, hit fast, hit first and run if you have to!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

hit hard, hit fast, hit first and run if you have to!

...Strike First, Strike Hard, Show No Mercy; Cobra Kai Motto...

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

hit hard, hit fast, hit first and run if you have to!

a slightly different emphasis...

I have always been taught "Run if you possibly can, give them what they want if it doesn't compromise your personal safety, hit only if you have no other choice, but when you do hit, hit without restraint".

I find this works quite well in life as well..

[Tettsui]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

what it really boils down to is who one has attacking them. if you get attacked, most likely it will be by someone who has experience at hurting people (and no aware they are going to be attacked).

I've never thought about it but that's so true. A person who's starting a fight is used to fighting. Most people never get into a physical confrontation in their lives.

If I were in a dangerous situation, I'd go for a combination of 3 weak points at once and then run. I'd probably attack the chin/throat, testicles, and the shin or maybe shin, eyes, then sternum. The way I look at it, I'm bound to connect with one of them and that's all you need to run.