Kyokushin self defense enough ?

[Boaretto]

I would like to know about you if the Kyokushin self defense we learn is enough to you or are you studying others techniques from others martial arts ?

I had held and incorpored some tecniques from others martial arts in my classes to complete the goshin jitsu of Kyokushin.

And you ?

[Shokei Marcsui]

I practice boxing punch techs and try to incorporate them into kyokushin kumite.

[Sonik]

I'm more into Kickboxing (making it 9 years now) and Ju-jutsu (3 years). Hardly train Kyokushin Karate these days. My first Kyokushin Karate instructor left the country and my second one is more into Kickboxing and K-1. I train from time to time with other Kyokushin practicioners from another local Dojo.

[ojgsxr6]

I want to preface this with I do not train at all for self defense so my focus in training is pretty narrow. But I think if you wish to train for self defense, you should definitley integrate some type of ground fighting and takedowns into your training. Either by crosstraining in another style(Best Option) ie. Judo,BJJ,Sambo, whatever, or by picking up stuff from instructional materials(worst option). Also you should definitely spar with head shots once in a while, not so much that you have to learn how to use them, but so that you know how to deal with them.

[veeevek]

Ya, i too felt i needed to learn some other art too, so i'd learned Kalaripayattu along with kyokushin..Actually my sensei was a master in kalari, so he taught us that too...Kalaripayattu is really good in self defense, it involves many locks, throws, and it's full of techniques unlike kyokushin..To escape an attack is very easy after learning kalari, and counter attacking is best of kyokushin., just personal opinion...

[desertfox]

I cross train in filipino martial arts (FMA) and BJJ once in a while to supplement my stand-up. I think its best that we become used to facing an opponent with a weapon and also be comfortable on the ground. But il always try to stay upright in a fight.

[oki_kazuya]

I practice the breathing techniques of Pencak Silat beside my kyokushin karate training.

[ryudo]

I myself love to engage in the practice of other martial arts, I begun training in judo at an early age, because that's what was available and allowed in my country of birth. Karate-Do was only reseved for the political aparatus i.e. the secret police and special service. Once I came to states with my family I learn karate and found it not to be that much more than what they porported to be...It was years later that I found out that the type of karate that they taught in cuba to the political machinery was something completly different than what they teach here in the States, more akin to like Daido Juku, Karate-Do over there was true karate not sport karate, by this I mean that their type of karate had holds, throws and blows to vital areas.
This type of karate is so well rounded that during the 1980's cuban civil riots where people where fighting in the streets, even experience judokas found it hard to content againts the thugs of the political machinery.
Mind you the people in cuba have a history of been street fighters very much akin to people of Bahia in Brazil...and it was not uncommon to have a judoka from the street walk into a local judo center and challenge the top student and beat him, sometimes even when the guy was a reconized regional or national champion. Which made it even more embarasing to the loser...also the are many street gangs in the barrios who are known to be martial artist, and the local regular police do not go into this neighborhoods for fear of been disarm and kill...usually when a police officer is murder there, the special response unit is called in to clean house. There are two types the red berets who are para-military airbone unit of the politburo and the black-wasp of the ministry of the interior i.e. the Secret Service.
The requirements to belong to either one of this units, #1 is to be either family or closely related to a member of the party, or a country farmer with strong fanatical devotion to the revolutionary goverment, the later type makes for the best candidates.#2 be proficient in some kind of martial art i.e. judo, wrestling, boxing. Upon entering this units, training in all kinds of weapons and tactics begin to include this type of karate-do, also known as karate-operativo or scientific karate, all the members end up achieving shodan in karate-do, this type of karate-do. So you can see that the style is well rounded.

[ryudo]

So getting back to your question, yes is great to pratice other martial arts because it enriches you.
I myself have done Judo, KarateDo, Aikido, Kendo, Jujutsu, I have also trained in kung-fu (wing-chun), but prefer mostly the japanese styles...oh done some Muay Thai but not enough to worth mention it.
The end result is this and I have ask many people who have done the samething that I have done.
There will always be a style that you love to practice and one that you are proficient in, e.x. I love karate specially kyokushin training, and I would love to have the opportunity again to train in it, but what I am good at is judo and aikido (specially tomiki style) and whenever I have gotten into a comfrontation with somebody either because I was working as a bouncer or I just happen to be there, I always ended up resorting to the judo/aikido techniques.
All you have to do with your karate is think and practice techniques that will defeat attacks of any types against a judo/jutsu ka or aikido ka, don't limit yourself to karate fighters, also boxers can be very tricky to deal with.
Next level is ways to defeat a stick or club, knife, gun, shotgun, etc.
Strategy for a fight, not a particular technique of a style is what counts.

[ryudo]

Also i like to mention in reference to cross training, that karatekas can benefit greatly from box training (learn to use your hands).
I would also recomend for the japanese style karate practitioner some TKD training (learn to use your legs). Or if you have heard of it Savate (french kickboxing) is the most complete style of kicking I seen so far.
Then of course there is Muay Thai, there's no better way to condition your shin bones, I can tell you from experience that I got kick in the thigh once by a muay thai guy during practice and immediatly i forgot all the karate i knew and went directly to my all faithful judo.
And offcourse if you want to learn how to deal with a judo man, learn how they attack and fight, take some judo.
There's also street yu-do the one that its taught in the hood, you know the one that saez yu-do know if i gota knife, yu-do know if gota gun...!!!OSU!

[Sebastian]

Now I'm not the most experienced or enlightened in this case, however:

I don't think learning ground fighting is really all that important in a self-defense matter, the difference between ground fighting and stand-up fighting (as I like to call it), is that with the former, your assailant will likely have no knowledge of it at all, while with the latter, the assailant will -at least- likely know how to form a fist properly (if he doesn't just laugh your ass off and leave) and throw some strikes.

I'm going to stick to Kyokushin Karate (I once considered to leave it), however I'm probably also going to cross train in Muay Thai once I move to Copenhagen, other than that, I have a friend, Rasmus, who is also moving to Copenhagen, once he does he'll take up BJJ. BJJ isn't really that interesting for me, but I figure that since he'll be my sparring partner, he will be able to learn me a few tricks'n'trades (the more I've watched MMA, the less interested I become in ground fighting and only the stand-up part, hence, I don't want to actually take classes in ground fighting anymore, however, I think learning a bit from a friend/sparring partner who does BJJ will be more effective than learning from instruction material).

I really just want to learn a little BJJ to just get off the most simple situations, but I do realize that if an experienced BJJ takes me to the ground, it'll be like jumping into the water to a crocodile, unless lady luck is on my side, I'm owned.

Osu

[ksan]

One of my Shihans used to say the same thing, he said " the way we do kyokushin nowadays is to much focused on sports karate, physical fitness and so on, and not enough on selfdefence...." he used to comment that a lot of brown and blackbelts would not be able to stand their ground in the first bar-brawl they got into.. He was mostly concerned about face punches and hooks thrown to the head..... His sollution was a lot of simulated face punch and hook blocking followed by takedowns during the lessons, he used to do these at the end of class as cooling down.

[sonofkanga]

The mythological street fight.
1.practice avoidness,it is the best self defense technique.
2.Winning a street fight has less to do with style MA or technique;It is all about will power.
The one with the stronger desire to win, mostly will.

Hence always incorparate in your training-BUDO KARATE.
AN INDOMITABLE DESIRE TO WIN
PROPER KYOKUSHIN always is about budo.

[orisha66]

Originally Posted by ryudo

black-wasp of the ministry of the interior i.e. the Secret Service.
The requirements to belong to either one of this units, #1 is to be either family or closely related to a member of the party, or a country farmer with strong fanatical devotion to the revolutionary goverment, the later type makes for the best candidates.#2 be proficient in some kind of martial art i.e. judo, wrestling, boxing. Upon entering this units, training in all kinds of weapons and tactics begin to include this type of karate-do, also known as karate-operativo or scientific karate, all the members end up achieving shodan in karate-do, this type of karate-do. So you can see that the style is well rounded.

Oye Pana
how do you know so much about the Fidelistas?
My uncle was revolucinario and its always a big topic at the family gatherings. but no one ever brings up the wasps. no disrespect mi hermano, just wondering

[World War Cheese]

Being for me a Judo guy first, karate second I tend not to agree with those who say the simple "sprawl and brawl" is enough. The US Army studied street fights and found that between 60-90% (pending on who you talk to) of all street confrontations end up on the ground. To beat a grappler you gotta take grappling. If you don't learn how to defend the takedown at least then you will be in big trouble.

That being said, if you're a sole grappler and fight someone who's both striker and had grappling training you'd best be prepared to have your nose meet the back of your head.

So for self defense, even though you probably won't be fighting a BJJ Blackbelt or something, the tackle will probably come around, I know in my own very limited experience that bigger guys like to tackle little ones. (I'm little.... or at least short)

That being said, what's so nice about Kyokushin IMO is that they already spent time fighting and training with the Thais and Kickboxers and any other striker worth their spit and incorporates basically whatever worked so aside from headshots it's a pretty complete striking system (even if I DO want to train in MT someday if only because my dad moved from Thailand to the US)

[Kris]

Originally Posted by World War Cheese

The US Army studied street fights and found that between 60-90% (pending on who you talk to) of all street confrontations end up on the ground.

I am sure this information is correct, but why and what took those fights to the ground? Were both fighters drunk and fell? Are we talking about throws and take downs? Should you try to keep punching your opponent on the ground or hold him in an arm lock? Then what, wait for the police or break his arm?

Here is a street fight taken to the ground, what do you think?

[World War Cheese]

Originally Posted by Kris

I am sure this information is correct, but why and what took those fights to the ground? Were both fighters drunk and fell? Are we talking about throws and take downs? Should you try to keep punching your opponent on the ground or hold him in an arm lock? Then what, wait for the police or break his arm?

Here is a street fight taken to the ground, what do you think?

I don't know the specifics, I just know what the Gracies, the youtube videos on Modern Army Combatives, and the cops in Judo I train with tell me. But either way, once on the ground it is up to you on what to do. Pin? GnP? RNC? It's all up to you and the other guy. I personally would try for a pin then choke out. They're safe and leave a guy out for enough time to get up and either walk away, call the authorities, or find a more secure form of holding them. If you have the skills the options are open, just like in a brawl: Do you kick his legs out? Try for kidney or KO? Or just be content with trading blows until one of you tire out.

Here's a few examples of people in street fights using grappling to their advantage:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=49305
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50135

Crosstraining is the best option I believe. Why take only one if you can take two? It's the surest way to being in a superior position in any situation (sans weapon, then you'd better just take kali or something).

Besides in America, where high school wrestling is a pretty big deal there's a good chance you're attacker has done this and will try for a takedown. I'm not saying you have to be Grandmaster Poobah of BJJ or Judo, I think you just need enough to keep from being taken down then do that Kyokushin thing you do so well.

[Kris]

WWC: sure, I agree. Knowledge of ground fighting is important in SD. Especially defence against take down. If you get choked out on the ground you're it, like the guy in the first video.

Still, the videos show some kind of amateur fight club event with people watching and cheering. There seems to be rules that the fights should go one-on-one. The risk in the street if you end up on the ground is that another aggressor will attack you from above while you are busy fending off the first guy.

[World War Cheese]

The most interesting part of this all is I'm having the same exact discussion on judoforum.com and this: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.m...c285466751fdc3 was posted recently. Now it's only one account and I don't have any evidence for it being a true story but it's more than nothing.

In the MMA fighter vs Streetfighter it was less rules and more other people around to break the two up if one was clearly dominating, as you saw in the GnP. The Grappler vs an Idiot was no rules of any sort, one stupid kid decided to take a swing at a more experienced one amongst a group of friends to keep his pride or something; this has been with my experience the most common street fight scenario.

Against multiple attackers ANY person of ANY style will be handicapped, it would be foolish to believe you'd be able to trade kicks and punches with one assailant and have the other watch the display and not try to come at you as well. Kyokushin is good IMO against two or more just because you learn to take a hit and keep slugging enough to discourage more attacks. Judo/BJJ is good because you know no ones coming from behind (that's where the ground it)

I'll link to the JudoForum discussion for you to see what more experienced grapplers have to say on the question: http://judoforum.com/index.php?showt...0&#entry231568

[Kris]

[quote=World War Cheese;15816]The most interesting part of this all is I'm having the same exact discussion on judoforum.com and this: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.m...c285466751fdc3 was posted recently. Now it's only one account and I don't have any evidence for it being a true story but it's more than nothing.

Sounds like a true story, and that was a street fight and not some fightclub match. BUT, if the guys would not have been drunk/high they would not have had a problem in the first place.