Defense against a knife

[Satori]

To start off, understand that this situation is not a joke. If someone just wants your money, give it to them, but if a physical confrontation is unavoidable and you genuinely feel your life is in danger you cannot allow yourself to think about possible interpretations of the law. You have no idea what the attacker intends, so assume the worst. It is either you or the attacker, nothing in between. If the only vulnerability you can see is one that would cause their death, take it. Only if you have a choice between death and immobility should you take the gentler path.

On that note, remember to not let your ego take over. Use only as much force as is necessary, but be prepared to use it all. If you can take down the attacker with minimal force, do it. If they're so inferior, what have you got to prove?

Originally Posted by BigAl

"Don't focus so much on the weapon that you forget about the opponent holding it."

That's it. Many people forget that they are still fighting a person and as such, the knife is not the only weapon this person posesses.

The knife will most probably be held in the front hand and used in a quick slashing motion. Holding the knife in the rear hand is a mistake as the knife has further to travel. Because of this, quick slashes are no longer an alternative, meaning more powerful strikes such as thrusts must be employed to compensate the attacker for the greater distance the knife must travel. In the context of a street fight, thrusts are a mistake because they upset the balance of the attacker and create an unnecessary weakness: the hand is now extended and vulnerable to a wrist grab and the body is square to the defender. The slower nature of the attack means the defender has an easier job of grabbing the wrist than he or she would against the front hand.

Regardless of which hand the knife is held in, remember they still have other weapons at their disposal such as reverse punches (in the case of a leading hand knife) and kicks if the opportunity presents itself. Experienced knife fighters will use their whole body to attack. Fortunately you probably wont be up against such a person in the street. Thugs are very rarely trained fighters. They are just ordinary people with weapons. You, by contrast, are highly trained. Use it.

If you have to fight, get in close. The knife gives them greater reach, so they would prefer to keep you at a distance and only move in when it suits them. To counter this, you must create the opportunity. Keep your distance at first, then charge in as soon as they present a weakness. If you close the gap quickly you will have a psychological advantage because they will not expect you to do any attacking, and you will be within range to apply lethal techniques.

As was mentioned earlier, grabbing the wrist for control can be key. However, if you're close enough to grab the wrist then you're most likely close enough to strike the neck, eyes or groin. The best option would be to grab the wrist and sharply pull it in towards you (or at a 45 degree angle towards you and to the side) so as to get in range of their vulnerable points. Once in close range use your imagination. Knees or shins to the groin work wonders. If you can, breaking the elbow of the knife hand (which you control with one hand) will also probably stop the fight right there. If there are no other options available, follow through with a nukite to the throat (while still controlling the wrist with the other hand).

If you can't grab the wrist, either because they're too fast or for some other reason, still look for opportunities to counter to their throat with nukite. The downside of not controlling is that if they're fast enough they might get a slash in. In this case you must remember to finish you're attack no matter what. Put all your energy into breaking their neck in half. Since you're in this situation in the first place you must be preapred to take cuts, so try to make whatever cuts you do take count by using their displaced guard to counter to vital points.

Also, just to quote from "Mas Oyama's Classic Karate" (also published as "Karate School" and "Mas Oyama's Complete Karate Course"): "When someone threatens you with a knife, you should never panic. You should not retreat; instead, you must have the courage to defeat him even if you have to grab his knife." By "you should not retreat" I believe the meaning is not to never run away but rather if the situation is unavoidable, don't keep moving back because you're just giving them momentum. I like the above quote because it introduced me to a possibility I had never previously considered: grabbing the blade. Yes, you will have a terrible cut along your palm and will probably feel great pain by doing so BUT it will give you the positional advantage of being in range to apply lethal or immobilising strikes as well as the attackers entire centre line being exposed.

One other tactic is that when threatened and already in range, put both your hands up, palms facing the attacker with fingertips about as high as your chin, as if to indicate "I surrender", shake them quickly saying "I dont want to fight, I don't want to fight" and suddenly strike out with a nukite to the throat. Your initial action of raising your hands and shaking them will be seen as a submissive action with the result being your attacker will drop their guard (mentally and perhaps also physically). Your words will further give them security. By shaking your hands, you're masking your intention to strike the throat when you decide to do it. That is, you're initial movement towards the throat will not be seen as the striking implements are already moving. The most important thing with this is make sure you're in range, as you might not get a second chance at ending the fight.

As was mentioned earlier, grabbing a nearby weapon is also an alternative. Although almost anything can be used as a weapon by a skilled exponent, unfortunately there hardly seems to be anything around when you need it.

Originally Posted by blackshield

if he is faster - you get a knife in the back..

This I don't agree with. Attackers will not generally be interested in chasing you down. They want to stop you, take what they want and leave. Even if they intended to hurt you once you comply, they probably will not give chase because they know that:

1) they might not catch you
2) chasing may bring unwanted attention to the situation
3) the defender may find a weapon while they're running
4) strategically, they might find themselves at a disadvantage, especially if you're turning a lot of corners

There are just too many risks for the attacker to give chase. For this reason, running is always the best option.

The only reason I see someone might give chase is if they specifically set out to hurt you. In this case, they don't want money, they just want to take you down. An attacker now considers most risks associated with achieving their goal acceptable. In this situation you're probably not just a helpless civilian but instead someone who has seriously upset a person or group of people. Since such an attack is an extreme action, I would question both your character and your choice of friends.

[Spirit]

A knife or a stick or even a sword...
Karate-jutsu is your answer!

[blackshield]

Hi Satori - just to clarify - I wasn't suggesting that running away was a bad option. If It is safe to do so, and you can give him wha he wants and get away... of course this is the first thing you should do. I was merely pointing out that it is not always an option, and that those who do knife attacks are often unpredictable, and unstable characters... be sure that if you decide to run, you have a clear escape, and be sure you aren't gonna be chased. If there is an indication after giving over your wallet or whatever that you won't be let go and that things may escalate it is better to face the aggressor face on rather than get a knife in the back

[Satori]

Originally Posted by blackshield

I wasn't suggesting that running away was a bad option.

Don't worry, I got that. I just think it's a little extreme to worry about getting stabbed in the back while running

Thanks for the posts!

[A-jay]

I saw an interesting site about "shock knives" for training purposes on another forum. You get a small electrical shock when you get hit, forcing you to act seriously.
They are really expensive though.
You can find the site on google. Just type shockknife.

I also found a clip on how to "defend" against a knife by using Ki Chaun Do pricipals.
Basically it's just keeping your enemy at a distance by doing mae geri's over and over again.
I don't think it will help much if you consider your opponent can also throw kicks as Satori said.
It looked pretty convincing though.

[toma]

One thing that is almost sure is that you're going to get cut if you decide to fight someone with a knife. You've got to avoid the confrontation so run away. If you can grab a stick of wood or metal, go for it and kick is ...!!!

Don't be a fool and try to block a knife: it's only working in training with a partner who doesn't want to hurt you!


Oh...i've been in this situation before so i know what i'm talking about.

Osu!!

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by A-jay

I saw an interesting site about "shock knives" for training purposes on another forum. You get a small electrical shock when you get hit, forcing you to act seriously.
They are really expensive though.
You can find the site on google. Just type shockknife.
.

This knife (if it is the one I know of) has been around for sum time, often used in police acd etc.
as well dojos that have the funds to own a few...
It is more to make you aware how well you blocked etc the knife by getting zapped if the blade area comes in contact with skin arae.
Acually very cool and helps you learn quikly unless you like the shock... then you learn slowly.

[A-jay]

Originally Posted by jap man

Acually very cool and helps you learn quikly unless you like the shock... then you learn slowly.

hahaha, yes that would slow down the learning process indeed

[smoothsake]

Are any of you familiar with "happyo no kuzushi" (forgive me if I have romanized this incorrectly). My sensei has gone over it with us the last couple weeks and it seems applicable to this discussion.

Happyo no kuzushi are 8 moves, designed by Sosai, and taught in the old days of Oyama Dojo to defend against an attacker and sometimes multiple attackers. Several of the moves can be applied to an attacker with a knife. Not well documented, these moves were taught to my sensei directly from Shihan Bobby Lowe.

Anyone heard of happyo no kuzushi and what do you think of their effectiveness?

[kakatootoshi]

Dear smoothsake,
Found this at the Canadian IKO-1 website:
Canadian Kyokushinkai-kan Karate Organization - Kyokushin - Happo No Kawashi/Kuzushi

OSU!

[smoothsake]

Thank you, kakatootoshi.

Those are the 8 steps exactly. Good work on the part of the Canadians for documenting them. So what do you all think? Effective, or just another variation of ippon/sanbon yakisoku kumite from kumite dachi?

[homer_simpson]

I read a book on Enshin Karate by its founder, Joko Ninomiya. Ninomiya suggests using jacket or belts when you really have to defend against a knife. I think using-the-jacket idea is quite feasible and practical, while using the belt part can be risky against skilled opponent.

[Bloke]

Im sure I also read about using the belt and jacket idea in one of Sosais books.

[Tameshigiri]

Belt and jacket against knife... is old technique from country fighters (gauchos) in South America...and I think works very well.

[boldbhoy]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

Dear smoothsake,
Found this at the Canadian IKO-1 website:
Canadian Kyokushinkai-kan Karate Organization - Kyokushin - Happo No Kawashi/Kuzushi

OSU!

Thanks for the link. We practice it, and just when you think you're getting it cracked....... we don't do it again for ages!

[boldbhoy]

I got "mugged" once in London a good few years ago.
I had a knife at my neck and one huge blade sticking right in my

belly button

that was really uncomfortable apart from anything else.
What I remember is that I thought with great clarity and remained very
cool, I was amazed. I just said calmly, "Don't do anything stupid guys" My only worry was I only had £2.26 cash. They picked the wrong guy. In those days I was unemployed (and had no ambitions to do another stroke in my life by the way) I was on the dole, a giro cheque man that drank for 2 or 3 days each fortnight, then had to live by my wits for the rest of the time!
When I look back, they were lucky to get anything!
If I had the choice, I would have ran like hell.
Osu!

[boldbhoy]

Made a bit of a mess of the last post, don't know why. I meant to put "belly button" in quotation marks like I just did here.
Then put "Navel" in brackets after. Dohhh!

[Satori]

Ah... on the dole and not a care in the world... what a life!

[boldbhoy]

Originally Posted by Satori

Ah... on the dole and not a care in the world... what a life!

There was quite a few of us in those days and thankfully you usually knew someone who had just cashed their cheque. So you could get your hands on a drink most days. Sometimes even food!!!

[bushido spirit]

if u are a full contct karate u have the fitness to run away and fast !!!! , but the problem is that if he got a gun >_<