Defense against a knife

[meguro]

Osu! tmd,
I wouldn't think we're in disagreement. If one's profession requires being in bad situations and confronting bad guys, a front may gain compliance-eg the bad guy presents wrists for cuffing rather than fighting a strong looking opponent-but should not be relied on. It is the sorry professional who has only his hands and his wits with which to face an armed adversary.

[Dent]

Osu!

I do believe there is a time to pull out all the stops on the nutjob express. Sometimes looking mental, shouting, screaming and the most horrible threats can make the less determined aggressor waver. I'm more of the quiet type, so I've only ever witnessed it, and it does have its place.

Osu!

[GomiFan]

I recommend having mace or pepper spray handy at all times-they have ones that you can attach to a key chain. Spray the assailant in the eye and as he's covering his face in agony, break his knee with a strong mawashi geri. I've heard silly comments from BJJ guys saying that you should take the guy down with a knife--something tells me this isn't the best idea.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by GomiFan

I recommend having mace or pepper spray handy at all times-they have ones that you can attach to a key chain.

Please check the legality of mace/ pepper spray in your locale before purchasing, or using such a product. No point in going to jail for something that can be avoided.

Osu!

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by GomiFan

I recommend having mace or pepper spray handy at all times-they have ones that you can attach to a key chain. Spray the assailant in the eye and as he's covering his face in agony, break his knee with a strong mawashi geri. I've heard silly comments from BJJ guys saying that you should take the guy down with a knife--something tells me this isn't the best idea.

I have seen people take a full shot of mace to the face and not even be affected in the slightest. Some people are just plain immune to it. You also have to figure that your opponent being drunk or high can also diminish its effectiveness. The biggest threats are the hard-nosed ex-cons who have been sprayed before and know that they can fight through it.

As for groundfighting someone with a knife, definitely a bad idea. In my military combatives training, we would often face scenarios that by gaining the upper hand on our opponent would often make them draw a previously concealed weapon and start trying to use it. One minute you're groundfighting with a guy, the next he's got a knife and is stabbing you in your side. There's no fool-proof way to get a knife out of somebody's hands. You're pretty much going to get cut at least once and it's going to be a tough fight.

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



Please check the legality of mace/ pepper spray in your locale before purchasing, or using such a product. No point in going to jail for something that can be avoided.

Osu!

Well said. In many countries it's actually restricted to law enforcement personnel or even in some cases you may need a permit for it.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by BigAl

As for groundfighting someone with a knife, definitely a bad idea. In my military combatives training, we would often face scenarios that by gaining the upper hand on our opponent would often make them draw a previously concealed weapon and start trying to use it. One minute you're groundfighting with a guy, the next he's got a knife and is stabbing you in your side. There's no fool-proof way to get a knife out of somebody's hands. You're pretty much going to get cut at least once and it's going to be a tough fight.

This was brought home again on Monday. I had a visitor who had just been receiving specific training in supposed responses to SD scenarios. Although his job places him in a high-risk category, not one of the techniques demonstrated started with striking the attacker.

After showing him the massive disadvantage that left him at, he is motivated to return to work and ask for a different protocol to be implemented.

Osu!

[Shorinji]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



This was brought home again on Monday. I had a visitor who had just been receiving specific training in supposed responses to SD scenarios. Although his job places him in a high-risk category, not one of the techniques demonstrated started with striking the attacker.

After showing him the massive disadvantage that left him at, he is motivated to return to work and ask for a different protocol to be implemented.

Osu!

HAHA Yeah someones whos been there. I was in the Infantry when I ended up in my first knife fight. I got all cut up. Im just lucky he didnt know what the hell he was doing. He just cut the hell out of my arm. Good luck in the army. Im going back in June.

[Dent]

Osu!

Good luck to you, Shorinji! Please be safe, and please avoid cranky knife-wielders!

Osu!

[Shorinji]

Thanks, I appreciate it. Civilian life is getting preety annoying.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Shorinji

Thanks, I appreciate it. Civilian life is getting preety annoying.

I hate all those options too. Waking up at any time, eating what I want, getting shot, or not.

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Osu!

[bobh]

Two things... the first is a pet peeve and I hope there is some value to my whining. I cringe every time I read or hear, "you're gonna get cut." This became a popular saying among the defense training crowd and it stuck like glue and spread like fire. It kinda reminds me of the "90% of fights go to the ground" mantra. Well, yeah you very well might get cut. Why do so many feel the need to say this to someone looking to learn about possible defenses against the knife? I've never been to a firearms course where the instructor starts with, "Look, first understand that you're gonna get shot." I suppose that telling someone that they are going to get cut does have *1* benefit. For someone who is afraid to get cut, this will help that person to "mentally move beyond" that fear thinking "well I'm gonna get cut anyway so I might as well not be paralyzed by fear over it." If you already have a warrior mindset (sounds corny I know) that is hardly necessary.

You know, when someone is shot, many times they fall to the ground and are immediately immobilized. This might happen in the case of a hit to the pelvic bone, spine, or brain. However, the reason a person is otherwise immobilized is because they believe they are supposed to be. That is why an enraged person, someone on drugs, etc. can keep coming after be shot many times. They stop only after they bleed enough to pass out! I only mention this because it is often the mind that keeps things going or can shut things down.

So... hey you might be cut if you need to engage. You'll most likely get cut. But you are not "gonna" get cut. ;-)


Second, regarding Mas Oyama's advice on grabbing an attackers knife, I remember reading that he claimed you could do this without being cut. I'm not saying I agree with this advice... but the gist was not that you should sacrifice a hand in order to defeat the opponent. If I am not mistaken, he wrote that you would not get cut unless the blade drew along your skin... so grab the blade and move with the attacker. I am curious enough to go dig up This Is Karate and look.



An update:

From This Is Karate Chapter 16 "Everyday Self Defense"

The first thing that usually comes into our heads on sight of a knife is, "getting cut." This, of course, is likely only when the knife is in motion downwards from top to bottom or in a horizontal motion from front to back. When it is merely lying quietly it is harmless enough. Therefor, if you firmly take hold of a knife with confidence that it absolutely will not cut you, it will not cut you. When you have gripped the knife and the opponent attempts to draw it back, it is important not to oppose the opponent's movement, but to go along with it.

[Shorinji]

Originally Posted by bobh

Two things... the first is a pet peeve and I hope there is some value to my whining. I cringe every time I read or hear, "you're gonna get cut." This became a popular saying among the defense training crowd and it stuck like glue and spread like fire. It kinda reminds me of the "90% of fights go to the ground" mantra. Well, yeah you very well might get cut. Why do so many feel the need to say this to someone looking to learn about possible defenses against the knife? I've never been to a firearms course where the instructor starts with, "Look, first understand that you're gonna get shot." I suppose that telling someone that they are going to get cut does have *1* benefit. For someone who is afraid to get cut, this will help that person to "mentally move beyond" that fear thinking "well I'm gonna get cut anyway so I might as well not be paralyzed by fear over it." If you already have a warrior mindset (sounds corny I know) that is hardly necessary.

You know, when someone is shot, many times they fall to the ground and are immediately immobilized. This might happen in the case of a hit to the pelvic bone, spine, or brain. However, the reason a person is otherwise immobilized is because they believe they are supposed to be. That is why an enraged person, someone on drugs, etc. can keep coming after be shot many times. They stop only after they bleed enough to pass out! I only mention this because it is often the mind that keeps things going or can shut things down.

So... hey you might be cut if you need to engage. You'll most likely get cut. But you are not "gonna" get cut. ;-)


Second, regarding Mas Oyama's advice on grabbing an attackers knife, I remember reading that he claimed you could do this without being cut. I'm not saying I agree with this advice... but the gist was not that you should sacrifice a hand in order to defeat the opponent. If I am not mistaken, he wrote that you would not get cut unless the blade drew along your skin... so grab the blade and move with the attacker. I am curious enough to go dig up This Is Karate and look.



An update:

From This Is Karate Chapter 16 "Everyday Self Defense"

I understand your point of view. I dont know I didnt start saying it until I got into a knife fight and by the luck of heaven, didnt get killed or seriously injured. However after train extensivley in blocking a kinfe strike I still got cut.

Perhaps your right tho. We do need to find a better way to articulate the danger of a knife fight without the grim fact of being cut. Do you have any thoughts?

The warrior mind set in no way sounds corny. Your absolutely correct in criticizing my statement. Im one of the few and proud that take pleasure in being criticizied.

Osu!

Very funny Dent. lol

[bobh]

Originally Posted by Shorinji

I understand your point of view. I dont know I didnt start saying it until I got into a knife fight and by the luck of heaven, didnt get killed or seriously injured. However after train extensivley in blocking a kinfe strike I still got cut.

Perhaps your right tho. We do need to find a better way to articulate the danger of a knife fight without the grim fact of being cut. Do you have any thoughts?

The warrior mind set in no way sounds corny. Your absolutely correct in criticizing my statement. Im one of the few and proud that take pleasure in being criticizied.

Pet peeves are a funny thing. They are usually something very small that people make a big deal about! So, I don't think terribly about someone who says this ;-)

I tell people that they need to get past the fear of being cut. This does not mean not to fear being cut. I recommend we all fear such things; it is healthy. You need to accept the fact that someone intent on cutting you, may very well cut you. Regardless of that fact, here is how we might deal with that situation...

I think this is probably what many people mean when they say, "you're going to get cut" anyway.

The same thing is true about the fear of being hit. Except that is much easier to deal with. We just hit 'ya and say "see, that wasn't so bad was it?"

[Dent]

Osu!

Very fair point. I faced a jealous rival who lifted a kitchen knife, and managed to finish the situation without getting cut. (A very weird set up from start to finish. One of those days where everything flowed. From sun up to well after sundown... Awesome day. And girl! )

To balance it though, I have been cut, stabbed and slashed. Percentage wise, I'm making the decision that if someone chooses to attack me, I believe they are armed, and willing to use the weapon.

I also choose not to be nice. Each time I've been less than 100% committed to finishing them, I've paid for it.

Osu!

[Shorinji]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

Very fair point. I faced a jealous rival who lifted a kitchen knife, and managed to finish the situation without getting cut. (A very weird set up from start to finish. One of those days where everything flowed. From sun up to well after sundown... Awesome day. And girl! )

To balance it though, I have been cut, stabbed and slashed. Percentage wise, I'm making the decision that if someone chooses to attack me, I believe they are armed, and willing to use the weapon.

I also choose not to be nice. Each time I've been less than 100% committed to finishing them, I've paid for it.

Osu!

Spoken like a true warrior. Give 110% cause the odds are they are better fighters then you. Least thats what I assume and I approach the situation like a professional.

[bobh]

Originally Posted by Shorinji

Spoken like a true warrior. Give 110% cause the odds are they are better fighters then you. Least thats what I assume and I approach the situation like a professional.

I agree. So much so that I believe that if possible you should try to kill your opponent. Just trying to grab your attention! If you think, "well I don't need to fight to that extreme" then there is a good chance you do not need to fight at all. You should always fight until the threat to you or your loved ones are neutralized. Therefore, a knockout might be enough. No need to kill them afterward

A great book, In the Gravest Extreme, addresses the topic of when to use your firearm in defense. However the topic applies well to defense in general. I believe that if someone has a knife you should not hesitate to use any technique available to you.

Amazon.com: In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of...

[Shorinji]

Yeah im from Texas and damn near EVERYONE has a knife here. I like to go to the mall and sit on a bench and watch everyone. I see knives, guns, and even stunguns(Rare). The threat is real. Im gonna order that book.