Defense against a knife

[ryudo]

How do you deal against and attacker wielding a knife that's about 5 1/2" long.

[Kris]

Get out of there. Don't try anything against a knife if you are not cornered and it is absolutely necessary. All fancy wrist bending tricks will likely not work in a real situation. One realistic technique I think is just try to grab around the whole arm of the attacker. By holding on to his knife arm, turn him to your side so that you can make space and run.

[ksan]

I agree with kris, always consider as option nr1 to get out of there. If not that safety should be first, most of the time your not alone (wife, girlfriend or other more vulnerable person then you might be there and you need to keep them safe and you cant do that when your fighting someone). Then there is the legal consequences... in my country if someone attacks you and you hurt them you will most likely serve time or pay a big fine (i know... its mad)... Even in best case scenario when you kick their ass and get away they can still bleed on you and i personally dont want that...

Last advice, when cornered and nowhere to go, always keep you eye on the knife, not on the knife hand. And when the knife holder holds the nife close to his body (near his waist) he is prolly more experianced with it then someone who wields it at armslenght in front of your nose......

(please, always make a run for it when confronted with a knife or worse... never try and be a hero)

[Dorsini]

The wrist bending tricks only work if the martial artist is really profitiant in their techniques. The martial arts aikijiujitsu and hapkido are really two of the best arts against knife wielding attackers. Some of the wrist bending techniques are very useful, but hard to pull off. It takes a person with an open mind to learn and expand their martial arts training.

[Sonik]

I've had already 3 or more occasions where my opponent/s had a knife or other objects. The first time a was just 11 year old. The guy was from my class and he came from behind to threat me. I didn't do anything just let him talk. As soon as he let me i went after him and hit with a brick in the head. The second time i remember i was 15 and they were 3 but only one had a knife. I dropped my wallet on the ground. As he looked down i punched him hard in the jaw. He fell and then i kicked him in the head instantly. I also beat the other guy and the 3rd one didn't do nothing. The last time i remember a similar situation it was a more complicate case. I was 16/17 (before starting martial arts) with my sister and they were like 7 or 8 (2 of them were like 12 or 13). They wanted trouble so i took the iniciative and hit the first guy but it didn't take long till they start hitting me with everything they had (street rocks, beer bottles etc). I managed to get my sister into a building and i grabbed one of the guys and took him in with me using him as shied (i got my head broken in 2 places, 3 knife cuts in the arms, and shoulder and some bruises in the neck area, in my back and in my face). Luckily the cops arrived in the time because we made a lotta noise in the building. I let the other punk escape because i didn't want no more trouble with him and his family (they were gipsys who lived in my neighborhood). I now have like 8/9 years of martial arts training (Kyokushin Karate/Kickboxing/Ju-jutsu) and i still think that after those experiences the best thing is to avoid at all costs even if it means to runaway. You can also pretend you're cooperating and then hit him when he is not expecting (from behind). But to be honest i don't think there's anybody or any martial arts school that prepares 100% for that kind of situation. As Sun Tsu said in the art of war there are no fixed rules. These are dictated only y the circunstances.


Osu

[desertfox]

your best option is to run like hell. the next best thing to do is to talk your way out of it or just give him your money. there's really nothing much you can do, specially against an experienced knife fighter. stuffs that were traditionally taught in dojos usually doesn't work.

[Aunty Ichigeki]

You're really in the poo if you're facing a knife. My partner did a course with a very skilled knife guy a couple of weeks ago & his take on the whole thing was very grim. He was teaching police (ie. not lifestyle martial arts people) so he had to teach very basic techniques & I liked one... he taught ONE defensive position to take in all circumstances. I liked this because I've been taught heaps of complicated theories that didn't make as much sense as this. He had the defender adopt something like a fighting stance but with your arms crossed in front of the body juji-uke style, about chest height & with bony bits facing out. He used this ('x') block upwards, downwards & even to the side. Once you've 'blocked' it's basically a wrestle to take control of the knife arm. Nasty, ugly & to be avoided in every way!

[Bloke]

I read somewhere that when some groups are working knife defense they wear long sleeve white t-shirts and replace the knife with a large black marker - everywhere you end up with a black mark, whether its a dot or a line, you would be bleeding. I saw a short clip of this once (but cant find it) and you would be amazed at the amount of black on the t-shirt in a short period of time.

[ryudo]

Hey bloke I know what you are talking about I just saw it too I think it was in youtube And the title I think was knife defense is imposible.
The vid is quite eye opening for it even shows the effects of a pocket/ folding knife like gerber or cold steel types that are so popular with american culture.
The instructor goes on to show what a knife cut looks like in a piece of meat, quite instructional!!

[MarkW]

Yeah, knives are really dangerous, its best to flee if possible. However, if you have no choice but to defend, grab the wrist of the knife hand and make sure you have control of it. If you only have control of his elbow or higher than that on his arm, he can still swing the knife around and possibly hurt you. If you control his wrist his can't move the knife much at all.

[karateka_latino]

I think before do anything bare handed is better to first, creat distance and second, grab a weapon, longer than his. try to keep distance between your body and the knife.

[ryudo]

Originally Posted by karateka_latino

I think before do anything bare handed is better to first, creat distance and second, grab a weapon, longer than his. try to keep distance between your body and the knife.

Well the proper distance for any kind of encounter must always be maintained, when either of the contestant fail at this victory or defeat are achieved...ie. if you get to close you get cut or you are able to disarm your opponent.
Now if you can find a weapon that's great, but what if you can't...I tend to watch a lot of the old samurai movies i am talking 1940's to 1950's movies they have a lot of techniques in them and specially the escense of defense in other words how to move and how you should be moving...just watch one of those sato-ichi movies and you will see what I mean.

[BigAl]

Something I got out of one of my previous martial arts (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu) which I always thought was valid advice was, "Don't focus so much on the weapon that you forget about the opponent holding it." They taught us to not see it as a sharp, gleaming chunk of metal but only as an extension of their body. A straight thrust with a knife to the stomach should be treated like your average seiken chudan tsuki. Of course, you don't want to let either hit you, which falls back to the wise words of Itosu and Funakoshi: "Treat your hands and feet as if they were swords", which a lot of different books I've read has said basically act as if every blow your opponent executes is one that will end your life if you don't react to it accordingly.

[ryudo]

Originally Posted by BigAl

Something I got out of one of my previous martial arts (Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu) which I always thought was valid advice was, "Don't focus so much on the weapon that you forget about the opponent holding it." They taught us to not see it as a sharp, gleaming chunk of metal but only as an extension of their body. A straight thrust with a knife to the stomach should be treated like your average seiken chudan tsuki. Of course, you don't want to let either hit you, which falls back to the wise words of Itosu and Funakoshi: "Treat your hands and feet as if they were swords", which a lot of different books I've read has said basically act as if every blow your opponent executes is one that will end your life if you don't react to it accordingly.

Excellent quote BigAl; I see that you not only expend your time training your body but your mind as well. latetly at the karate club where I rent training space my partners and I been working on some of the tomiki aikido techniques againts weapon attacks, specially the knife attacks.
We work on thrusts and slanted attacks, one of the main concerns that we focus on is grabing the attacking limb, quite hard to do in a real fight situation.
Thru the Tomiki rules we been able to bring a little big of realism to the practice, but also come to the realization that the tai-sabaki is of paramount importance for the technique to be effective.
Offcourse this is only one approach that we are presently using but not the most definitive, I will expand more on this subject later on.
Thanks for the reply to my post...OSU!!!

[orisha66]

In the 80's and early 90's, I have been in situations with blades, when i lived in Washington Heights, confrontations en BX, and Harlem. Ive been cut in all situations, some minor and major and i still have all scares. you will be cut when it goes down. I dont know where alot of you live, but in the hoods that ive marched in, when it goes down you wont even see it coming, so assessing the situation...you dont have time. on the other hand, the best way to prepare for blade attacks is to go learn knife fighting. learning it will help you to understand what is going on. try to find a teach, who has been there, done that and not a text book teacher. i do feel kyokushin has gone a competition way and has forgotten where it all came from started at. In a whole, kyokushin has lost Budo just like so many other arts that teach the so called "REAL MARTIAL ARTS" you gotta take your training to the streets (not literally) but understand what is out there, cause if you dont know, you will get it handed to you. Can you dig it? truth is no amount of training, no matter how hard or strenuous, it wont ever fully prepare you for the streets. Funakoshi says; "When you leave home, feel that you have 1,000 enemies waiting for you." All i can say is dont get caught slippin. Can you...diiig it....my brothers and sisters.

[blackshield]

sorry... posted this elsewhere:

If a knife is involved it is obvious to say get out of there! but that is not always an option... (obviously if it is then go go go!)

My advice would be to have some realistic knife defence in your training - it is the most common weapon you will face, and not knowing how to deal with it could be fatal... with that in mind my pointers would be:

1) get hold of the knife bearing limb, and don't let go! - police reports indicate that of those people attacked with knives, the people that survived/had the least injury are those that managed to get hold of the weapon bearing limb and didn't let go

2)use a cover/guard that covers both high and low targets (like the 'dog catcher') - the juji uke techniques described above (with the boney part of the arm outwards) are very good at this, and they relate very easily and fluidly with traditional karate blocks (funny that). Just remember to be fluid and work the defence from all angles of attack - aiming in the end for a mushimi/kakie feel to your defences. The reason being that if you can maintain contact witrh that weapon bearing limb for as long as possible, not only do you instinctively know where the weapon is, but is easier to control and take hold.

3) expect to get cut - but try to limit where you will get cut. This relates to the cover I described above... it is much better to get cut on the outsde of the arms than anywhere else.

5)limit yourself to gross movements, ie - nothing fancy that requires too much dexterity. When the adrenaline is pumping and the fear kicks in, most just won't pull of anything fancy

6) whenever you feel confident in your ability to defend from a knife do a 'marker pen' drill - and it should bring you back to reality with a crash!

[Martin H]

My old jujutsu teacher (who taught defense against knifes, although not really effectively) used to say to us that the only good defense was a good time at 100m dash, since there was no winners in a knife fight, only different degree of losers. You WILL get cut.

I like the marker pen drill. just make sure to train is old jeans and cheap t-shirts that day.

As a alternative if you got the economy for it, there is also a shockknife available now. a knife with a weak but very noticeable electric current running down the "edge". A good tool for training defense against a knife. Not cheap though. Shocknife - Home

[blackshield]

Generally I agree Martin, however, like I said before, running is not always an option - what if you are with loved ones - or even if you are just cornered in? Personally I always think that as Martial artists we should be training for the worst case scenario

[goldberg2310]

we do not have so much self defense in kyokushin-training. sometimes only as bunkai during kata-training. the time goes by to fast... ;-(

during self defense training at my job, we perform a tchnique nearly by "mawashi-uke" for blocking. at this technique the forearm should be protected with a shirt or jacket of yourself, getting no cut with the knife.

it is difficult to say what is the right technique. where does the attack come from? straight on? from upper side? or anyoneelse...

the 100m escape is a good idea...hope your opponent is not as fast as yourself.

OSU!

[blackshield]

if he is faster - you get a knife in the back..

the answer to the type of attack is to have a system in place that deals with all attacks with the same principles - there is no 'one technique' that is right for every scenario - but there are fighting principles/ethos that can be applied to all situations, the technique that is performed is more of an outcome of this