Knife attack - no bull we need a defence that works

[tmd]

In Japan there has been an horrific event with a manic carrying out an unprovoked or expected attack on a bunch of total strangers. In the UK so far this year 30 teenagers have died, most from knife attacks - the Japanese story is so shocking in it's scale that it's unimaginable and one can go on thinking it won't happen to me, but 30 youths in 6 months? This puts in on your street, the threat of being threated with a knife is probably the same as it's always been, what I think has changed is the wielder; they seem much less mindfully of the consequences and far more motivated to use the weapon with far less provocation, one of the murders in London; the guy said the victim looked at him funny, truly this is what he told the arresting officer, on another I think the victim laughed when the guy dropped his shake, several were reported as mistaken identity.

So, we always say that knife defenses are for demo purposes and last resort only but is there one that works for you, I have one which I have practiced and practiced, feel natural and potentially effective but I am no expert, come on guys what works? We need to be teaching this...

[chen3141]

Large PDF file
http://documents.scribd.com/docs/t20...oir5f49jip.pdf

3-11, or page 48.

[Dent]

Osu!

Not to be unduly blunt, but if you're facing a knife, you'll be lucky if you get away with minor cuts. Most of the time it isn't going to be pretty, and people die all the time.

(I could show you some of the police file-shots, but they are gruesome, and inappropriate for the Forum.)

If you wonder why I think the laws against minor Kobudo weapons are asinine, it is because any idiot can get a cleaver, butchers knife or a parer, and be far more dangerous than someone with a pair of sticks.

I've tried to find viable defences against the blade, and I'm convinced that empty hand vs blade is as smart as knife vs shotgun at 50ft.

I also wonder if the continued crack ups we're seeing isn't an indictment of our lifestyle choices. People are falling through the cracks, not least because we're so very disconnected from one another.

Osu!

[Kris]

First of all I would just like to say that this event was very shocking to me because I live in Tokyo. I do not go to Akihabara all the time, but could very well have been there a sunny sunday, browsing the electronic shops.

I always feel very safe in Tokyo and have never been in or even seen a violent or threatening situation in the streets.

I think knife defence should only be used when you are 100% cornered. Run if you can. Even a small cut could hit an artery and kill you. Maybe some of you have seen the video "Bas Ruttens streetfighing" (sic). Besides being and MMA champ BR used to work as a bouncer. In this video he recommends to grab something and put between you and the knife attacker. He is using a bar stool in the video. Stools and chairs are not in the street of course, but if a tough guy like BR does not challenge a knife I am not going to. The idea is to make his knife out of reach to cut you.

The only "hand to knife" technique that I have seen demonstrated that seem to work was of of an ex military, security type. What he was doing was to grab the whole arm of the attacker. Not the hand, blade or wrist. Just grab the whole arm, and turn the attacker 90 degrees, or just enough to clear a path to escape. (This was done with white t-shirt and colour knife, to simulate cuts). Seemed to work.

Then there are weapons. I would not like to arm myself but the reality is that many people carry all kinds of weapons in the street. A knife to a knife? Not safe, would not recommend. Tradional kobudo weapon? (Nunchako, stick, tonfa etc..) Well.. not really, right?

One possible weapon would be this one, but not legal to carry in all countries.

[jcbel]

Even a gun wielding police officer is well warned to stay away from attackers with knives! Apparently a gun is not a solid defense against a knife unless you are far away enough (and a good shot).

Edged Weapon Defense: Is or was the 21-foot Rule Valid?

Excerpt from the article:
The 21-Foot Rule was formulated by timing subjects beginning their headlong run from a dead stop on a flat surface offering good traction and officers standing stationary on the same plane, sidearm holstered and snapped in. The FSRC has extensively measured action and reaction times under these same conditions. Among other things, the Center has documented the time it takes officers to make 20 different actions that are common in deadly force encounters.

Here are some of the relevant findings that the FSRC applied in reevaluating the 21-Foot Rule:

- Once he perceives a signal to do so, the AVERAGE officer requires 1.5 seconds to draw from a snapped Level II holster and fire one unsighted round at center mass. Add 1/4 of a second for firing a second round, and another 1/10 of a second for obtaining a flash sight picture for the average officer.

- The fastest officer tested required 1.31 seconds to draw from a Level II holster and get off his first unsighted round. The slowest officer tested required 2.25 seconds.

- For the average officer to draw and fire an unsighted round from a snapped Level III holster, which is becoming increasingly popular in LE because of its extra security features, takes 1.7 seconds.

- Meanwhile, the AVERAGE suspect with an edged weapon raised in the traditional "ice-pick" position can go from a dead stop to level, unobstructed surface offering good traction in 1.5-1.7 seconds.

- The "fastest, most skillful, most powerful" subject FSRC tested "easily" covered that distance in 1.27 seconds. Intense rage, high agitation and/or the influence of stimulants may even shorten that time, Lewinski observes.

- Even the slowest subject "lumbered" through this distance in just 2.5 seconds.

Bottom line: Within a 21-foot perimeter, most officers dealing with most edged-weapon suspects are at a decided - perhaps fatal - disadvantage if the suspect launches a sudden charge intent on harming them. "Certainly it is not safe to have your gun in your holster at this distance," Lewinski says, and firing in hopes of stopping an activated attack within this range may well be justified.

[vapor]

My brother-in-law is a police officer in the US, and they carry guns, knifes and the batong (just as kris linked), so that they have the appropriate tools at hand...depending on the situation...

vapor

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

I was being asked about this about twelve months ago, so took a basic but excellent course with Lee Morrison Urban Combatives - the best in combatives site on the net

Lee has real life experience and is a thorough instructor who knows his subject and teaches a common sense and practical approach.

Many of the martial arts demonstrations / techniques against knives I have seen so far would simply not work for real, so we owe it to ourselves and our students to drop the ego, ask for help from an expert and learn a realistic approach.

Gary

[Kris]

Originally Posted by vapor

My brother-in-law is a police officer in the US, and they carry guns, knifes and the batong (just as kris linked), so that they have the appropriate tools at hand...depending on the situation...

vapor

ホント? Policemen carry knives?

Today in Tokyo the policemen patrolling the subway had their batons extended and in hand. Gives you kind of a creepy feeling. (Usually they are holstered and compact). But I guess this is to be able to respond fast enough to an attacker. Do not know if it is temporary because of the attack in Akihabara.

[vapor]

Originally Posted by Kris

ホント? Policemen carry knives?

Today in Tokyo the policemen patrolling the subway had their batons extended and in hand. Gives you kind of a creepy feeling. (Usually they are holstered and compact). But I guess this is to be able to respond fast enough to an attacker. Do not know if it is temporary because of the attack in Akihabara.

I was just talking to my wife, and she is a little shaken up about this....she says, you know, I could have very easily been in Akihabara on the weekend...looking at new computers...

Her next question...how come no one else tried to stop him?

Good question. Mass panic and overiding fear, and lack of situational awareness was what we thought was the general mindset...

(my brother in law said that it is easier for them to pull their knife out when dealing with crazies, than their gun....too many things can go wrong when guns get pulled, especially if they know that the crazy they are dealing with is not armed...and a knife has the same affect---he has a Kershaw spring assisted knife...something like this...found this on youtube, but you get the idea...
YouTube - Kershaw Knife )

vapor

[Dent]

Osu!

Getting close to a knife wielder is a bad idea. Smart people would stay away from a guy who is trying to kill them.

I have faced knives, and have been cut and stabbed for my trouble. Outside of protecting my family, I wouldn't take on a knife without a weapon of my own.

I've spent a long time and looked at a number of systems for knife defence, and I still believe that without a weapon, superior timing, and a complete willingness to take the life of the attacker, you could make a trip to the morgue.

IMO, overall self defence should include the avoidance skills we often talk about, and rarely practice.

Osu!

[tmd]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Osu!

I was being asked about this about twelve months ago, so took a basic but excellent course with Lee Morrison Urban Combatives - the best in combatives site on the net

Lee has real life experience and is a thorough instructor who knows his subject and teaches a common sense and practical approach.

Many of the martial arts demonstrations / techniques against knives I have seen so far would simply not work for real, so we owe it to ourselves and our students to drop the ego, ask for help from an expert and learn a realistic approach.

Gary

Precisely what I'm asking for. Sensei OSU!

I know a lot of you are saying stay clear, teach awareness etc and of course this is what we teach, I talk to a lot of the students 1-2-1 about keeping safe, preemptive planning etc, talk to my kids about awareness but if you're on a bus, some thugs get on and just decide it's your day we owe it to our self and our students to have a back up plan when all the smart planning in the world isn't going to save you, some real interesting posts guys, keep it up.

[tmd]

Example for the site put up by GJEC...There tag is Aware, Capable and Prepared, I think we should accept in the case of an unprovoked attack is prepared should read 'prepared to act'


http://www.urbancombatives.com/vids/...r%20thrust.AVI

[Tettsui]

One of the defenses that I've heard if you can't run away is, trap the arm with a piece of clothing or belt. So this could be your shirt, jacket, or belt. Try to flick the clothing item at the arm with the knife, so that it wraps around the arm. Then try to disarm him. This way you get some distance from the knife holder. Another alternative is to throw your clothing at his head to block his vision and then take the knife.

It won't work for someone who's rushing you or pulls out the knife while wrestling you...which is probably how most stabbings happen. However, it can work for someone at a fighting distance.

[Dent]

Osu!

In our practice, stripping while someone is actively trying to stab you will get you cut. As I've said before, the edged weapon is no joke, and most SD scenarios that I've seen seem to treat it in a static fashion. (As they often do with punches and kicks...)

Osu!

[GJEChamberlain]

Osu!

I agree with Dent. Various studies have shown a knifeman can cover 9 yards faster than a trained police officer can draw and fire a weapon. (1.2 seconds) So removing clothing? Forget it! If you have clothing in your hand, or anything else for that matter, throwing it at their face may be a useful distraction, but no-one will calmly wait while you remove your jacket - would you?

Years ago a knife was used mainly to scare the victim and force compliance. Now they're used for fun. You need to get good advice and then drill it until it's instinctive. Running is always better, but if you've got your family with you? You've then got to put yourself between them and the knife, so having realistic skills that work under pressure is the best insurance you can get.

One more thing. Pre-emption is a contentious issue in traditional martial arts, but if you wait until the blade is in your face you're screwed. Learn where people carry them, (pockets, waistband or back of belt etc) notice the cues and body language and drop them without mercy if they reach for their blade. There's no guarantees you won't be prosecuted at best or stabbed at worst, but giving yourself a chance by hitting first is a good idea.

Gary

PS Years ago I saw a top Aikido instructor stabbed in the leg during a demo where he knew what was coming. This is not something to play with .....

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

One more thing. Pre-emption is a contentious issue in traditional martial arts, but if you wait until the blade is in your face you're screwed. There's no guarantees you won't be prosecuted at best or stabbed at worst, but giving yourself a chance by hitting first is a good idea.

And now it's my turn to agree fully with Gary. Prosecution will be the least of your concerns if that blade goes live. It's also smart to remember that the chippy/ bar/ nightclub/ street etc etc etc is no time for theatrics. Hit hard, and get away. You're just making a window.

Osu!

[seienchin]

I'll add a slightly different slant, perhaps pragmatic.

firstly, I agree completely with Gary and Dent. I do teach a knife defence that works. It is called RUN AWAY. Snivel, grovel, if you have to but do everything you can to avoid facing the blade.

If you must defend, it has to be based on a single hard, very very reliable technique, because there will not be a second chance. That means no fancy above waist kicks, no complicated lasso manoeuvres, it has to be really simple, and deadly effective.

Now to the different slant. You have to know how to deal with the bleeding. People die not from the wound (usually), but from the bleeding. Unless there is laceration to an internal organ such as liver, spleen or heart, death before making it to medical assistance is tragically unnecessary.

A friend of mine had his arm torn off in a car accident. He controlled the bleeding, and walked 5km alone to assistance. If you can control bleeding you can give yourself (or the ones with you) a better chance of surviving even it it all goes horribly wrong.

First aid courses save more lives than self defence courses. Think about that for a minute.