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[elsabra]

hello to you all!

i have this dream of running my own dojo and just train and teach all day long
but i have a lot of questions, so if anyone can help here a little bit it will be great...
1- how do you start? i don't have any money to buy \ rent a place
2- will it be smarter to start from teaching in other dojos?
3- is it possible to earn enough money so you wouldn't have to work in another job from teaching?
4- what is better - to have your own dojo or to teach in different places?

that's all for now, thanks for your help

[Brad]

elsabra are you starting one in san diego. sorry i cant help with some answers for u.

[Paedde]

Maybe this Thread is interesting for you Building an MMA gym - Sherdog Mixed Martial Arts Forums

I wouldn't recommend trying to earn money first, just start building your dojo, do it for fun and maybe it starts running good. I wouldn't quit your job too, not many people will come to training when you are working.

[Brad]

good site paeddle it's being a while since i fought in a ring like that one.

[hasbeen]

i recommend getting as much experience as you can in as many places as you can before opening your own dojo.

[seienchin]

Elsabra - your goal is commendable. However, many karate-ka don't really understand how enormous the committment is to run even a part-time dojo, especially on your own, without an assistant instructor.

It is just like any other business, and a degree of business planning savvy is necessary, before you embark on any undertaking like this. Opening a dojo is just like opening any other business. It is just that your product is karate, whilst other businesses might sell other services or products. The standard principles of business planning apply.

Some fundamental questions to be answered are:

• Who comprises your target market? (eg children, adults, men, women, tournament fighters, fitness, self-defence, mixture).
• Where do they work/live?
• How much competition is there within that catchment?
• What do you offer that is "special" that might attract people to you instead of the competition?
• How much would rent cost?
• What other costs would you have? eg electricity, heating, insurance, branch chief dues, building maintenance (depending on your lease), equipment - mits, pads, tatami/mats (?lease?purchase), advertising/publicity.
• Are there any other potential revenue sources (other than student fees - eg could you sublet some of your premesis, does the government give grants to fitness organisations, or to organisatinos that run programs for youth or seniors). If so, how much can you generate from these?
• How much income would you need to have to cover the costs, and how is that broken down between student revenue and other revenue sources? (If you don't know how to do one, read up about "Marginal cost analysis", and work out how to calculate a "break even" point. This will let you do the business modelling of how many months of effort you will need to put in running at a loss (which most businesses do for the first year or so, often).
• How will you finance it during the loss period - what would you live on, and how would you pay the rent?
• do you have some way of having a transitional arrangement -where you get the student base first before transitioning to this as a full-time job?
• What will you do to attend to your own ongoing development?
• Do you need and can you get liability insurance?
• Do you need and can you get permission from a branch chief to open a dojo?
• Are you required to register a company name or similar with the Taxation office of your country?
• if it is to be a business, how far are you prepared to go in compromising your standards to turn a profit - I am not being rude, but every full-time dojo operator must have an answer to this.
• Are there any opportunities for co=location with other sports facilties whereby you could save money on rent?

These and other questions will form the basis of a business case that you would need to present to a bank if you were asking them to finance your business. I can't emphasise enough that this needs to be approached with as much business sense as any other commercial venture.

Good Luck!

[Spirit]

Originally Posted by elsabra

hello to you all!

i have this dream of running my own dojo and just train and teach all day long
but i have a lot of questions, so if anyone can help here a little bit it will be great...
1- how do you start? i don't have any money to buy \ rent a place
You'll need thousands of dollars in a checking account for credit check to get a lease and thousands more to do a build out of the dojo

2- will it be smarter to start from teaching in other dojo's?
Do you have another place to teach at ? if so YES. You'll need a good 5 years of teaching before going out on your own

3- is it possible to earn enough money so you wouldn't have to work in another job from teaching?
YES, after years it is very possible. Though it is based on what country you live in and what type of area you are in as well. You as a person and as a teacher as a businessman all come into play. What type of dojo will you run, will it be focused on "traditional values, then maybe No you will not be able to make money (possible if you are 5 th or higher dan been around a long time and have a very strong rep that would be different). Do you have a partner or 2 to help out with the teaching, a girlfriend or wife to run the phones and collect the money talk to the parents and all that if no you'll need someone you can't teach and do that at the same time. If you think you can you have already failed.
It would be best to teach while you hold down a job until you have at least 85 paying students for 2 years straight.

4- what is better - to have your own dojo or to teach in different places?
To teach at another till you have the years, rank (minimum sandan) and experience to understand all the dynamics that go into running a dojo. And it way more than you can ever imagine it to be


that's all for now, thanks for your help

IF you are living in any free world economy expect to spend thousands of $$$ per month for rent, then add Insurance, phone, elet, heat, equipt, add big money on marketing and advertising.

It sound to me by your questions that your heart is bigger than the reality of the business. Join a group that helps you as a teacher and works with you without major fees or costs.... (no one that is part of the Martial Arts Industry)
I opened my first dojo with tons of teaching experience but little to no understanding of the business side it was very tough and lost much money as well.
Everyone knew me and everyone would tell me that they would train or bring their kid once I opened, well guess what its all talk, i opened and no one came, no one like the building I was in, who knew. That was over 20 years ago. Now it is even harder if you have ethics and care about what you teach and how you teach it is even harder.

Yes their are many dojo's that make big money each year hundreds of them make $500,000.00 or more, but sell everything including their souls if they had one.

The best advice would be to get into a Y or a Boys club or a school (grammar or middle) some place that would rent to you a room 2-3x's a week for short $$$ say $200 - $500 a moth. this way you can start off small, in a place people trust and if the school does go under your not on the hook for the lease for the remainder of the lease...

Read everything you can about opening up a business, forget about teaching Karate for the time being and focus on how to run a business, most of use can teach, most of us can run a business from the ground up or build a business from the ground up.

I hope the excellent info seienchin wrote out and the reality I stated will help you focus on what you need to gain before opening up.

[vapor]

Originally Posted by Spirit

but sell everything including their souls if they had one.

Spirit---I now have water coming out of my nose, as I was taking a big drink whilst reading your post!!!

Very good replies, remember that unless you have an instant customer base from day 1, you will probably lose money for 4-6 month if you are lucky, a year plus until you go bankrupt if you are not...(read up on how many new restaurants are actually successful after they open their doors)

Another thing to remember, is that another dojo in the town, is not your only competition. It could be a fitness-only gym, it could be new movie theater that just opened...the soccer club at the elementary school too.

vapor

[elsabra]

thanks a lot to all of you...
your information really helped me, i guess that my dream about running my own dojo would have to wait some years. i should start doing homework in economics and business management... anyway thanks once again!
osu

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by elsabra

i should start doing homework in economics and business management...

Now that is the kind of attitude that really does make dreams come true. Everyone is prepared to dream. Only a few are prepared to find out what it would take to actually make their dream come true, and then put in the effort to do so.

If you do what you have said - learn about business management, economics - maybe marketing /PR ...these are valuable skills anyway, but utterly invaluable in opening and sustaininga dojo.

Good luck elsabra - we have been a little bleak, but we actually really want your dream to become reality. Only you can make that happen.

[Spirit]

Vapor, don't blame me because you have not mastered the skills of drinking out of a big boys cup....



Opening a dojo is everyone's dream and I can say it is a great one at that!

So many factors can cause you to fail or be the greatest dojo ever. As seienchin pointed out knowing business etc is very helpful, I did not have this when I opened my first dojo and it caused me much profits and students and everything else.

It was the biggest lesson in Karate I had ever learned, just because you know somethings doesn't mean you know them well...

I know Sensei's who are just so poor (techniques wise) yet they have been open for years and making hand of fist in money? What do they have that I don't, is always the question we ask ourselves. You do a pro to con comparison between you and them, you come out on top by miles, so what is it.

Well sometimes (more times than not) its not even about how good you are, but how well you can sell it...

The biggest mistake Kyokushin dojo's make when they first open is try to hard to prove they are the strongest karate and run off all the new students. Yes we are a strong style and yes we train hard and etc...
But when you entered the dojo for the first time was it a established dojo that had been around for a few years or more or was it full of new students all not knowing what to do and expect? remembering your first dojo experience can be a great way to start to plan your own dojo. First thing you write out is all the things (as a new student) you did not like about the dojo, and then have a plan not to make those mistakes.
Next write down all the things you liked about the dojo and have a plan to improve on them, not just mimic them IMPROVE them!!!

Starting a new dojo means that for the first 12 to 18 months you need to scale back and work everything a little slower ( also you will not make any money at all and depending on the nut you are carrying it could be up to 3 years before you make money), and as you gain kyu rank students cut them from the class and work them up the scale of effort as well, teach them what to say to each new student etc improve their spirit slowly work them harder.
You are starting something brand new, you can't just jump in with both barrels firing and expect to gain students, you need to build a rep, you need to build trust, you need to build students who understand what and why they need to train hard...
You need to build up students who are happy in the way they are learning and telling others about their experience in the dojo...

Another thing is you may know how to kick and punch etc, but how to teach is so different. You need to be able to teach in several different ways. humans learn in 8 ways you need to be able to touch all 8.

Not everyone is like you (big lesson I need to learn as a new dojo owner) I had a reason to be their each day no matter what, the students not so much, especially in a new dojo where their is no blue, yellow, green or browns belts to look to.

Location is a big thing to, it can completely shut you down!!!

The person you have working the office, how soon you get back to people, how you handle walk ins ... the list goes on.

I look at it this way, you need to have a dojo inside a dojo.
The first dojo is for people who wish to learn Karate, you teach them strong and show them everything as time moves on. Now these people Will not be those who wish to learn K/D nor will they wish to be beaten down during class, doing kata to kumite, but they will come and pay their dues. This is what I call outer dojo, they learn Kyokushin at a slower pace and at a lower level of intensity.
Inner dojo are these who wish to train as I teach, HARD...
they may not always pay their dues, but they are your core students, they will be the ones who teach for you, and do all the things a true student should do.
They will train on different nights or times than the others and they will train longer and more often, they are the students you go to the dojo for.

This may seem a bit out of place or off key, but to get a handful of great students you'll go through hundreds of not so great, and why send them off when you can keep them and teach at less intense level, but still teach and give them a chance to grow into a great student!

The lease, (In America) are 5 years and N, N, N (or triple Net).
triple net is, insurance, taxes and building repair, heat, or others things the owner is paying for that you share the cost based on the % of space you lease out of the total property size. It could easily be additional $250 to $500 per month on top of your lease that could be $3000 to $4000 per month.
Also if you sign a 5 year lease and you go belly up in 6 months you are still on the hook for that lease for the next 4 1/2 years.....

The cost for a lawyer to get the lease finalize could run from $1000 to $5000. And the build out is easily $20,000 if not more.
When you lease a building 2 things can happen you pay more per month to the landlord to do the build out for you (he offers you $14. S/F for a 3.000 s/f space that would be $3500 per month) but it needs 2 changing rooms, an office, a bathroom, a viewing area and the dojo walls and floor, lights etc all need to be built. You could do it yourself and use your own money (the L/L usually gives you 45 to 90 days free rent to build out, but it usually takes much longer so you are paying on a lease on a dojo that has not opened yet.
Or you could pay him to do it and pay $17.25 per month $4312.5 per month. and not pay any lease till he is completed.

Lots to think about.

Then again you can find a small little place needs no real build out, rent is cheap (why) does it have parking? is it in a bad place? (questions to ask yourself)

Get lucky and teach at a gym (good student base to work with, though often high costs to rent time/space off them, but you can walk away if not working and you can piggy back off their advertising (they have a marketing firm working for them if they are any type of creditable gym)
Again pros and cons...

After reading all this you say is it worth it ???
I would say HELL YES!!!!!!!!! that and more, just do your home, work and then do it again first. Do not be afraid to ask others to look over your syllabus, marketing, dojo floor location and planned floor space, times you will be open etc everything.
Open up to these willing to put the time and effort in and take what they say as law....

I ask my friends both Karate and non to look at everything, each idea, location (special the Mom's. always ask the Mom's) take in every bit of advise no matter how bad it is. Make sure that you tell them to be BRUTALLY HONEST to you, do not hold back at all!!!

Why ask them, well they are the people who will becoming to the dojo (they are the general public this is marketing at its best and cheapest), not understanding or know who you are or what is Karate.
If a friends or better a friends, friend gives you a bad mark, then most likely everyone else sees it like that or something bad about it to.
You are not perfect, so ask. I spent 60 or more hours just on a dojo name. If they can't say it, they can't remember it and they will not go down to it (since they can say it and wish not to embarrass themselves once inside your dojo).

You must NOT THINK LIKE A SENSEI in the office only on the dojo floor.
Everywhere else you are a business person!!!!
Do not let pride blind you of your goals!!!!

[shinobijesus]

interesting thread. i was actually recently considering how there are no strong Judo schools nearby and was wondering what it would take to get a club started. glad i saw this thread. originally i was planning on getting one going about mid 08 but theres definitely more groundwork than i previously considered... ill give this some more thought.

[tansei]

I was teaching for almost 10 years at someone else's dojo before i decided to open my own - part-time. Everyone's suggestion above is excellent advise. The only thing i need to add is that you are a Sensei always. This means you are always a teacher. You may be conducting business with a client, but you are always teaching that person something. E.g. They may ask for a special price, or that it's too far. You must not short change yourself. "If you want quality courses you should make the effort to travel and pay for it." Of course your kindless and tolerance levels are adjusted when outside the dojo, but you remain a Sensei (or Sempai).

Second thing i experienced when I was in the process of opening a dojo is - learning as I went along. I was thinking of opening in March, but it strategically made sense to open in September (after vacations, school starting, etc). So I had six months to prepare this dojo. My fist step was to decide whether I would be paid by a sports center, or rent the place myself and own the memberships. I decided to own the memberships and rent at a local college sports center per hour. I do have colleagues that own their own "dojos", but not the memberships. They get paid by the sports center per hour. It's a limited liability on their part.

The second aspect is location. When you are not well known and just starting, your clientele will come from a 1-3 kms radius. Proximity is a factor, so get to know your area well. If you are renting a place per hour, then chances are you cannot place a sign on the front of the building to advertise. Consider the local newspaper of that region, and door-to-door flyers. Offer specials - like free uniform. Get a dedicated cell-phone with a special voice mail. Most important, when they call, be prepared to answer their questions with confidence. Building a base of members is very important. Retaining these people is also very important. You could have the best marketing in the world, the best business knowledge, but if your members are not impressed with the class, they will go elsewhere. Find ways to keep the class interesting and moving. Give them a good workout. They are consumers at the beginning and you will mold them into karatekas with time.

In my opinion, kids of 9 years and younger and the hardest to deal with alone. You will need an assistant instructor. Something to keep in mind if you are starting out and are targeting a specific group.

In conclusion, i would say, continue to find opportunities to teach karate while learning the business part. Continue dreaming and planning and set a specific goal when you want to open this dojo.

Looking forward to hearing some news about your dojo.
Tansei

[elsabra]

dear sensei mark... i have 2 questions to ask you:
1- how can i build up a rep. while i'm teaching in an existent dojo, just helping my sensei? i mean, o.k you are building up a rep. but you won't still your sensei's students, right? so this way all your rep. will stay in that dojo and when you would go away (to another city for example) it won't come with you...

2- which are those 8 different ways that humans learn in?

[elsabra]

do you think that taking some basic courses in economics will be enough for running the dojo business, or should i actually study economics for a B.A?

p.s. - i'm sure that running my own dojo worth all the effort

[shinobijesus]

your rep staying at your old dojo is fine because some people will be asking who you learned from. it might make them feel more at ease if they can call and ask about you.

[vapor]

Originally Posted by elsabra

do you think that taking some basic courses in economics will be enough for running the dojo business, or should i actually study economics for a B.A?

p.s. - i'm sure that running my own dojo worth all the effort

Book smarts will get you far, so sure, an economics class is important, but real life business skills, regardless of the industry will allow you to think on your feet, and put into use what books tell you.

I had the great experience when I was much younger of working at a franchised sandwhich shop.

I got to the point, where I was having to do inventory and ordering food for the next week, looking over schedules, handling the money at the close of the day, and run checks to make sure that money figures added up before I went home.

Sure it was just sandwhiches, but managing people, and elements that make the business run, were an excellent experience.

Going through those tasks was much more than I could have learned from a class room setting.

Balance is key- book and real world

vapor

[Spirit]

elsabra
Your rep will carry with you, people talk... their is always students or parents that wish to stay with you.
If your Sensei is a logical person he/she will understand that 1 or more students will go to your new dojo, Sensei should encourage this to the students, if not then he/she was never your Sensei.
If you are a good teacher, who never compromises a class, works hard with everyone (even the less inclined to learn students) then you are a balanced instructor, if you push each student, never giving up on any of them and always challenging each to their levels (which will be different per student) then you have a good rep. People will talk and talk is gold in this business.....

As for the 8 ways, this is something you must research for yourself. It is way to long to explain and need personal attention on your part to understand.


Business of Karate varies in each country and in some countries each part of that country.
For example in America Karate in the Northeast is much different than FLA or So. CA.
NYC is also much different.
People in New England are harder people, they don't trust or like change, it takes years for thing in Ca to happen in NE.

Not only do you need to know your business, you need to know your people, your demographics as well many other things.
I really don't think taking a economics class will help at all, possible a small business course then yes. Or if you have them in your country a small business mentor ship or something on this line... it is when you sit down with a retired business person and talk about your plan and they give you advice based on their past experiences.

The number one thing is to write a FULL 5 year Business Plan!!!
This is the only important thing you must do. It may take you years if you don't know how to do one, yet it is the most important tool (unless you are paying by the hour to rent space from a collage of sports place then it is not as important, yet a wise thing to do.

Many people fail to see how long they can run a business on the money on hand, all the real expenses they encounter and if you can go from part time dojo to full time ( the big dream)

Do your plan and have someone check them for you CPA or Bank etc... not a friend in collage or a pal in lower management etc. a pro.

[elsabra]

it seems to me that the best thing to do right now is to stay in my sensei's dojo, helping him and learning from him how to run and manage the business....

[vapor]

That is a great idea!

If you can be involved in the day to day side of running things, that will go a long way to understanding what is necessary, and seeing someone handle that on top of the teaching side of things!

vapor