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I no longer train for fair fights

(Carried over from the 'Old Man's Training' thread)

If you know who your opponents are, how much approximately they weigh, where and when the encounter(s) will take place and what the rules are. That's a Fair Fight. All combat sports, including dojo and test sparring, fall into that category. Most martial artists and combat athletes train for fair fights. They get extremely fit and durable and challenge themselves. They control their fears and fight hard, always a good thing, but it's still a fair fight.

If you don't know any of the above then that is a different thing entirely. You can and should now use foul means and deception to finish things as quickly as possible. As a kid when my father taught me military unarmed combat he couldn't grasp the benefits of fairplay or sparring at all. His methods were just massive aggression to finish the enemy as soon as possible. Increasingly I now teach SP to private clients who simply want to drop someone who breaks into their home or threatens their family. In those cases I don't bother teaching fairplay.

I still believe in Martial Arts and enjoy teaching an enthusiastic group of students, including coaching their sparring for test and tournament preparation. For people of all ages I feel this way of fighting and training has tremendous benefits. Personally though, I no longer worry about training to look stylish for multiple rounds of sparring, but focus on being as explosive and ruthless as possible. That's what I meant by "I no longer train for fair fights".

I hope that's explained things. I am definately not quitting karate any time soon and remain fully committed to teaching Enshin - in my opinion one of the more practical styles.

Gary

[Hangtime]

Makes sense Gary (I'll go back and read what prompted this post). If you're not a "tournament fighter", what use is fighting fair?

- If someone tries to attack you on the street from behind, it's not fair
- If someone pulls a weapon on you, it's not fair
- If someone tries to bash your head in, it's not fair.

If the situation you're most likely to be in isn't fair, why should you fight fair; further, even for those who do "tournament fights", training for the unfair situation just keeps you sharp, if it should ever happen.

'Ave it Gary, OSU!

Edit: I read your post, and I agree wholeheartedly!

[kakatootoshi]

Kyokushin may not be perfect for self-defense training but one thing that give relalism about it is the non-existence of weight categories. The weight tournaments began much later in order for people, especially beginners to better use their skills. Still in Kyokushin today the winner of the open weight world tournament is the ultimate top prize in tournament fighting.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

Increasingly I now teach SP to private clients who simply want to drop someone who breaks into their home or threatens their family. In those cases I don't bother teaching fairplay.

Agreed.

When teaching those who wish SP, and not Karate, I focus more on weapons than the empty hand. In my opinion, taking empty hands to an SP situation is also foolish.

Osu!

[Godai]

This has always been my goal in training. Martial arts was, from the beginning, only a vehicle to enhance my fighting for the street. My platform for the time. Don't misunderstand that...I am not going around street fighting (anymore)! But that is how I started and that mindset and training goal has never left me. I have always taken my dojo training home and retooled it to fit me. That immediately led to realizing that aesthetics were just that....window dressing. Of course being part of a "style" and an organization one has to work on these things and I did. But I also had "my karate" and still do. In 1989-90 I was getting ready for nidan and my plan was to showcase my thoughts for karate at the grading. My application would not have had a partner for bunkai that I rehearsed with and he wouldn't stand in front of me with me saying ok...grab my gi. Or throw a right punch . My partner would have been moving around and attacking at will with "anything." I would have to react to surprise. I even wanted to let anyone attack me, whomever was watching or another student testing. I wanted it not to look like stylized karate but more like a fight. Kicks, punches, takedowns, hair pulls, jumping, wrestling....whatever....a fight! Very ugly. Formless form. Like the WWF wrestling! I was looked at like I had two heads....so I didn't do it.

When MMA came round in 1993 my eyes lit up. This IMO was "real karate." it is how we should have been training all along. It took years for MMA to become available to the general public. I switched to MMA a few years ago not because I wanted to be an MMA champ. I didn't do it for sport or competition at all. I only did it for ease of training karate without any of the extra baggage that comes with traditional training. I did it so I could do my karate how I wanted without anyone frowning on it. I did that for years and didn't need to keep practicing etiquette and form constraints and line ups etc anymore. I had sufficient knowledge IMO. I just needed to keep "ready." Fighting ready to take out any unknown attacker. But I also want to be diverse in my knowledge and also valid enough to fight even the sports competitors should I have to.

MMA isn't my "style" nor am I really an "MMA guy." MMA happens to be my latest "platform" for training. What I am is just a fighter. I don't practice fair fighting. I am nice to my training partners but my mind is always in the street. That is the focus of my training.

[bobh]

Fair fights are for fun. For me they are mostly a self-test. Training for a real fight is an animal-like exercise of extremely focused aggression and a severe mindset. Visualization is helpful IMO, and fair fights can definitely help develop the focus and mindset necessary for a survival fight.

I still train for a fair fight... but I realize, also, that at some point in the near future I will probably forgo that (for myself) as well.

... if that makes any sense :-)

[Godai]

Originally Posted by bobh

Fair fights are for fun. For me they are mostly a self-test. Training for a real fight is an animal-like exercise of extremely focused aggression and a severe mindset. Visualization is helpful IMO, and fair fights can definitely help develop the focus and mindset necessary for a survival fight.

I still train for a fair fight... but I realize, also, that at some point in the near future I will probably forgo that (for myself) as well.

... if that makes any sense :-)

It does make sense and in my rambling I forgot to mention the "test." that was kind of what initially sparked my thoughts before I posted. the though got lost.

Sparring, dojo fighting and competition is a safe testing ground for parts of our fighting. Not all of it but some. But you have to understand what you are doing and as you say "visualization" among other things is part of that.

Great posts!

I'm not alone in these thoughts. I like to take the road less travelled (always have) and it's nice to know others I respect have reached the same point.

The UK full-contact community is still a fairly tight bunch, and to my amusement within hours of my original post this morning "I no longer train for fair fights" I had text messages on my phone asking me why I'd quit training and which RBSD group I was joining - hence the explanation.

Gary

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

to my amusement within hours of my original post this morning "I no longer train for fair fights" I had text messages on my phone asking me why I'd quit training and which RBSD group I was joining - hence the explanation.

You could tell them that the rest of your post is in the Supporting Member section.

Osu!

[senshido]

I cant see anything to disagree with above,
I teach my competitors to fight fair, but I no longer train myself to fight fair, even when sparring in the dojo, I rarely fight fair these days (too many young fast guys)

[kanku]

Of course i agree with all of the above, it makes sense.

I think there are two seperate situations where you streetfight.

1) you fight to hurt someone badly.

2) you just HAVE to give somebody a slap but you don`t want to hurt them seriously.....before you say in that case you should talk your way out of it how about this senario.......

guy drunk who is a "known" handfull" you know him and his family and have always gotten on well with them, the wife being an extermely nice lady who happens also to be a high ranking nurse(full respect)...get the drift?

now, you upset the said guy because of a point of principle....and at a later date in a club late at night you just happen to hear him telling anybody that wants to listen, including friends of mine that i deal drugs......

i didn`t want to seriously hurt him but i just had to smack him, this led to a good old fashioned punch up which i got the better of in the end but i did get a cracked bone in my face for my efforts!

His wife asked me what the hell had happened("not like you to do that!") a week later and we all ended up friends again.........my last punch up(thank god) a good few years ago.

so perhaps not all streetfights should be viewed as maime and destroy as efficiently as possible...and perhaps SOMETIMES some sorts of rules have to apply.......or am i wrong?

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by kanku

so perhaps not all streetfights should be viewed as maime and destroy as efficiently as possible...and perhaps SOMETIMES some sorts of rules have to apply.......or am i wrong?

It's all in the moment, but was there another way to handle it? Ask him around when he's sober and tell him what he'd been saying?

For me, I used to be comfortable with the idea of a punch up, but over the last couple of years I've had to learn to bite my tongue, because if I'm going to fight it's because I absolutely have to. And then I don't want there to be any doubt as to either reasons or method.

I try to keep it light in here as it is our virtual Dojo, but in my opinion, the Pavement Path needs to be trod in a different fashion.

Osu!

[kanku]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



It's all in the moment, but was there another way to handle it? Ask him around when he's sober and tell him what he'd been saying?

For me, I used to be comfortable with the idea of a punch up, but over the last couple of years I've had to learn to bite my tongue, because if I'm going to fight it's because I absolutely have to. And then I don't want there to be any doubt as to either reasons or method.

I try to keep it light in here as it is our virtual Dojo, but in my opinion, the Pavement Path needs to be trod in a different fashion.

Osu!

Osu Dent!!

Perhaps you are right, i was on my own having the p*** taken out of me by him and his cronies, if i let it go at the time...... (and this was a club i frequented regulary) people might have believed there might have been some truth in the lies?... people who know me would of course know different.

what if somebody wants to have a go at you over say a driving issue, you try and talk them down...no good, does this tempermental but normaly nice person deserve the full Dent arsenal, if you can`t talk them down?

just being devils advocate now

[bobh]

Originally Posted by kanku

Of course i agree with all of the above, it makes sense.

I think there are two seperate situations where you streetfight.

1) you fight to hurt someone badly.

2) you just HAVE to give somebody a slap but you don`t want to hurt them seriously.....before you say in that case you should talk your way out of it how about this senario.......

guy drunk who is a "known" handfull" you know him and his family and have always gotten on well with them, the wife being an extermely nice lady who happens also to be a high ranking nurse(full respect)...get the drift?

now, you upset the said guy because of a point of principle....and at a later date in a club late at night you just happen to hear him telling anybody that wants to listen, including friends of mine that i deal drugs......

i didn`t want to seriously hurt him but i just had to smack him, this led to a good old fashioned punch up which i got the better of in the end but i did get a cracked bone in my face for my efforts!

His wife asked me what the hell had happened("not like you to do that!") a week later and we all ended up friends again.........my last punch up(thank god) a good few years ago.

so perhaps not all streetfights should be viewed as maime and destroy as efficiently as possible...and perhaps SOMETIMES some sorts of rules have to apply.......or am i wrong?

I'm going to have to say I disagree. I think fighting is like pulling out a handgun. If you think you can use it to wave around and use "half-way" you might get killed or end up killing someone. If you are not going to shoot, don't pull it out. If you are not going to destroy someone, they were not a threat.

I will say that I have not always followed my own advice.

But I wish I had.

At least I know what I practice is effective against a much bigger fellow.

[Thunar]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

I no longer train for fair fights

(Carried over from the 'Old Man's Training' thread)

If you know who your opponents are, how much approximately they weigh, where and when the encounter(s) will take place and what the rules are. That's a Fair Fight. All combat sports, including dojo and test sparring, fall into that category. Most martial artists and combat athletes train for fair fights. They get extremely fit and durable and challenge themselves. They control their fears and fight hard, always a good thing, but it's still a fair fight.

If you don't know any of the above then that is a different thing entirely. You can and should now use foul means and deception to finish things as quickly as possible. As a kid when my father taught me military unarmed combat he couldn't grasp the benefits of fairplay or sparring at all. His methods were just massive aggression to finish the enemy as soon as possible. Increasingly I now teach SP to private clients who simply want to drop someone who breaks into their home or threatens their family. In those cases I don't bother teaching fairplay.

I still believe in Martial Arts and enjoy teaching an enthusiastic group of students, including coaching their sparring for test and tournament preparation. For people of all ages I feel this way of fighting and training has tremendous benefits. Personally though, I no longer worry about training to look stylish for multiple rounds of sparring, but focus on being as explosive and ruthless as possible. That's what I meant by "I no longer train for fair fights".

I hope that's explained things. I am definately not quitting karate any time soon and remain fully committed to teaching Enshin - in my opinion one of the more practical styles.

Gary

I just don't have anything to say, if i ever visit England, It would be an honour to talk to you in person. You always get right to the point. Osu Sensei!!!

Thank you for your comments - I'll be happy to talk over a beer any time you're over here.

I think for many of us training is a circular process.

You notice a weakness in yourself and train to gain an advantage in a confrontation,

Then you want belts,

Then you want to compete,

Then you want to coach, which in my case has happily stayed.

Then you no longer compete,

Then you no longer want belts,

Then you notice a weakness in yourself ...

LOL

I'm slowly heading back to where I started. It hasn't stopped me doing my best and of course I love the coaching. It's just reaffirmed how I focus my own training. I don't seek confrontation but even when I'm in a nursing home - if someone steals my soup there'll be a reckoning ...

Gary

[Ros]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

... if someone steals my soup there'll be a reckoning ...

I'm guessing that will be someone who's never met you.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Ros

I'm guessing that will be someone who's never met you.

Or some poor character with Alzheimer's.

Osu!

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



Or some poor character with Alzheimer's.

Osu!

Geee! and two of them stole Gary's soup?! ..........

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players,
They have their exits and entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
Then, the whining schoolboy with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden, and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice
In fair round belly, with good capon lin'd,
With eyes severe, and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws, and modern instances,
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose, and pouch on side,
His youthful hose well sav'd, a world too wide,
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again towards childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

William Shakespeare