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[Godai]

I came across this video, very much by accident but it brings up a question I've had for years; that of "over training." I often wondered if over training was more due to fear of over training rather than any actual real problems. Sure I have over trained in the past. What happens is your body gets worn down and wants you to rest. You say no and train another day, then another and possibly more. Your body then says, “ok, if you won’t stop then I’ll stop you” and next thing you know you are sick and running fevers or catching a cold. Other times your body just quits and you can’t go anymore becoming weaker or slower or sloppy or all of these things. But what if you just ignored that and kept going? What is the next stage? I always theorized that it was “adaption.”

We are voluntarily training but what about forced hardship? The choice is adapt or die; the body tends to adapt. Enduring cold, hunger, injury, hardship, abuse etc. Can ideas such as over training be so ingrained into our modern brains that it is causing our bodies to follow suit. Are we getting weaker? The human body is very adaptable and we evolve by adapting. Can we force change?

This little clip probably has no proven scientific data to prove anything (yet). But it got me thinking. What if?



http://gmy.news.yahoo.com/vid/16952659

But what if you just ignored that and kept going? What is the next stage?

Death or serious illness can be the result.

I strongly advise everyone to train smart, and avoid the bear trap of adding more and more volume. You get tired, then weak, both a long way from the explosiveness required.

DO LESS - WORK HARDER is a better way to go. I base that advice on scary personal experience.

My main question would be "Why do it?" We know getting stronger requires intensity, good nutrition and rest, why mess around with that formula?

Gary

[jcarmello]

Originally Posted by Godai

I came across this video, very much by accident but it brings up a question I've had for years; that of "over training." I often wondered if over training was more due to fear of over training rather than any actual real problems. Sure I have over trained in the past. What happens is your body gets worn down and wants you to rest. You say no and train another day, then another and possibly more. Your body then says, “ok, if you won’t stop then I’ll stop you” and next thing you know you are sick and running fevers or catching a cold. Other times your body just quits and you can’t go anymore becoming weaker or slower or sloppy or all of these things. But what if you just ignored that and kept going? What is the next stage? I always theorized that it was “adaption.”

We are voluntarily training but what about forced hardship? The choice is adapt or die; the body tends to adapt. Enduring cold, hunger, injury, hardship, abuse etc. Can ideas such as over training be so ingrained into our modern brains that it is causing our bodies to follow suit. Are we getting weaker? The human body is very adaptable and we evolve by adapting. Can we force change?

This little clip probably has no proven scientific data to prove anything (yet). But it got me thinking. What if?



http://gmy.news.yahoo.com/vid/16952659

Life expectancy or greater physical capabilities....so many variables, hmmm

[Godai]

I'm surely not advising anyone to just ignore the body's signs of possible injury or worse. I'm just wondering what we are really capable of (within reason). Even in today's world we hear of people surviving what we think would normally kill the average human being. But it is because they are forced into a bad situation and the fight to survive kicks in. I'm just wondering if there is something we can take from these things, in some way, and adapt them to our training.

Of course life expectancy is a whole other issue but I'm not talking about a way of life here I'm only talking about certain human adaptive capabilities...again...within reason.

I'm sure some of you have trained so hard you thought you'd pass out. I know I have on many occasions. Yet, there are people who train twice that hard...or more.

I'm sure on a case by case basis we can push dangerously hard and the body has enough reserves to see us through. I was refering more to the sunken eyed madmen (and women) who push to the point the body is destroying itself and try to keep that up year on year. Suicide by installments.

We seem to have this in Martial Arts, particularly in the 'tough' styles. Many people building up for tests and for tournaments simply add volume - we see it here in their workout logs. Other athletes periodise, they up the intensity and reduce the volume before events. A lot to learn from there IMO.

I've never felt better than since I cut my weekly training load to just five (hard) sessions ... But I've written this before and don't want to bore the t*** off everyone again.

Each to their own.

Gary

[AmericanWerewolf]

As I don't train in Kyokushin my response may not be valid but my two cents anyway. Training through a cold a fever and a runny nose is possible and done often by myself and a lot of my friends. Training through a bit of discomfort from a nagging injury is also possible. Internally I think you need to have a barometer as to what is too much and you should over train at least once so you know where that boundary is. Knowing when your body can do it and when it cant is important push hard but don't push so hard that you break.

It is also going to be different for everyone especially if your style is hybrid or you train in multiple disciplines. There are some days where the Karate itself seems excruciating for me but I am able to do jiu jitsu in the same class without feeling the wear down and vise versa. What bothers me more on the topic is the idea of parents pushing their children to over train which is very dangerous not only to the child and the child's future interest in Karate but also the reputation of the school.

[sandman]

I'm certainly guilty of over-doing it sometimes. But I have to agree with Gary's formula: intense training, good nutrition, and rest. The tricky part is figuring out the right ratio of intense training to rest. Everybody's is a little different. The little voices in your head telling you to rest are sometimes giving you good advice - but they are also often trying to trick you out of doing that one last round or that one last set that could be the difference between stagnation and improvement. Its tough to give yourself an honest assessment sometimes.

[Godai]

Yes, we all train intelligently and I myself do the same although I have been guilty of over doing it on many occasions. But some mention feeling good, or healthy or energetic etc which is great for average health. But as a fighter, always wanting to be better than the next guy, training intensities and ways to tap into ways of upping those intensities is key. There is already steroid use in sports and why is that? To over ride the normal human tendencies.
My curiosity is in the area of naturally adapting. The body adapts when you force it to. Hands get sore and inflamed before the skin blisters and tears when shoveling or sweeping. This is your body telling you to stop...and you will. But if you didn't, it will bleed. Keep going and it gets worse. Normally we would stop but someone who was forced to keep going day after day, perhaps to feed their family or whatever, would eventually grow callouses. The body adapts. That is an example on a much smaller scale.

When I gave the example of me becoming sick when I over trained in weight training, these days I can train much harder than that....and I'm about 15 years older!! I think there is a fine line between over training and "adapting."

Maybe there is something in us that we can tap into but the average person never does. I fancy myself a fighter. And as such I am always looking for ways to enhance training or be better than the next guy. I have found that mindset goes a long way as does overcoming natural fears that are sometimes nothing more than dogma. With that in mind, I am just (rather than following) "questioning." And from there, maybe there comes some knowledge that I might add to my coaching and teaching that I can pass on to enhance the next guys chances of being the best.
The mind can move us forward or hold us back. The guy with "no mind" has no preconceived notions or fears. his body usually does some fantastic feats.

[jgpt1]

In addition to all of the above mentioned methods, I find it useful to focus on "internal" (it is a loaded word!!) practices like kata at medium speed/continuous motion, stance training (ex. ritsu zen, holding kiba dachi for 20 minutes etc.), tai sabaki w/partner or using trees for positioning etc. All of these methods, performed correctly, are easy on the joints (for stance training it is important to utilize proper stances w/correct bio-mechanical alignments etc.) and do increase your functional karate/martial art ability.
This kind of training is also useful in varieting other "harder" training programs like plyometrics, hard bag work, etc.



There are many ways of "adapting". I find, as I get older, (37 now and have been training karate since I was 11), that I have "adapted" my training methods. I know, functionally, I am better than I was at 18. I could kick higher at 18, but now my motions are more efficient, my timing is way better and I have much better "visceral" understanding and ability to deliver powerful techniques. I could hit hard at 18, but I hit harder now w/much less effort.
A lot of this, for me, has come from trusting relaxation and utilizing the "old" methods of training; repetitive kata, holding stances, etc. I still hit bags and makiwara, but much less often.

[Okamido]

Originally Posted by jgpt1

...I find, as I get older, (37 now and have been training karate since I was 11)...

Snap!

I am also 37, and having been training since I was about 11! how far can we push ourselves, only as far as father time will allow us - thats for sure!



---

More specific to the topic on hand...

Years ago, I had a Muaythai kickboxer that when competing we would bring down in weight during training camp, ( 16 weeks ), from about 75kgs, to 65 Kgs, as he was competing at Light-welterweight ( 64.5kgs ).

His performance was good, as he eventually captured the English Light-Welterweight MT title. At the weight check of his last bout at Light-welterweight, we had on hand bodyfat measuring scales. We measured this, and found his percentage to be less than 4%!

Followinig his contest I researched information on bodyfat %, and discovered that the advantage in sports perfomance that we were looking to gain from the weight cut, was actually being lost due to cut being too drastic.

How we got such a drastic cut, was due to purposely overtraining, with the intension to not only burn bodyfat, but also lean muscle - in order to 'shrink' the fighter ( common practise at the time for Muaythai fighters ).

For the fighter, Matthews's, next bout we cut back the training intensity and moved him up a division.

He challenged for the British and Commonwealth Welterweight title at 66.6 kgs ( a jump from 64,5kgs ). His strength and performance was markedly improved, and he stopped the previously unbeaten WKA British MT Champion in round 4, ( Sweet combination too, Right Jump Downward Elbow, Clinch-Hold-LR Knee, Step-Turn-Release, Right high kick! ).

Building on that solid performance, we again moved Matthews up another division to 69.2 Kgs.

The result, was a marked improvement in stamina and strength that saw his last three contests all end early by stoppage!

How did we get such an improvement in athletic performance?

Training camp intensity was literally - halved!

The moral of the story, overtraining is definately real! Yes the human body can take a lot of punishment, but at some point if you overtrain you will get diminishing returns.

Pics of Matthews in action.

http://www.warrington-kickboxing.com...ctors_010.shtm

Osu!

[Godai]

Thanks, Okamido for that informative post. I'm with you on that all the way. I'm not in disagreement with any of this or in intelligent and individualized training. I just have "thoughts" sometimes (many times). In this case, I was never looking to purposely over train myself or anyone else. However, I wondered, (from a scientific standpoint) if the body could eventually adapt. Your training methods of the fighter you describe worked well and are spot on...I have no problems with this type of training and being involved in the sport understand it very well.

However I do believe that there is an inherent fear that keeps people under training also. I think the same problem of "if a little more is good then a lot more must be better" holds true for some people on the other end. They think that if less is more than a lot less must be better and they tend to under train or "baby themselves."

I still wonder if there is a line to straddle. Maybe not on a constant basis but here and there. I do know that for me at age 53 I train very hard. But I can't do what I did years ago or what the younger guys are doing. By that I mean train twice a day plus multiple times per week. I need more recovery time otherwise in about 3 weeks I burn out. However I do continue to progress and train harder as time goes by (ok... I "did" before I got sick). I actually did some things better than the younger guys. I think I'm a much better kicker now also believe it or not. Puncher too. But for me I follow the less is more theory also. I get more out of doing less work. Doesn't stop me from always wondering though.

Thanks again for that post. I'm not sure if anyone was really understanding what I was getting at.

[knuckleheader]

Okamido has an interesting experience working with a pro fighter. With great results. But, lets talk about the average karate practioner. What do they get out of training hard. Mental toughness. Getting physically fit is great. If you compete as an amateur, failing to get 1 st place due to over training hurts our ego. We live to train an fight another day.
What I think is more important. acquiring mental toughness. Going out of your comfort zone in the dojo, preparing your self for unexpected hardships that may befall us. That to me, is the benefit of hard training. Developing a can do attitude. Learning to keep pushing when others would curl up and die.

Of course while doing this. It's important not to train your self into illness, injury or poor health.

We do not live as neanderthal, fortunately. We don't have to chase down our dinner. So, yes as the video showed. The human species may have lost some physical prowess. It's up to the modern man and woman, to get off the couch.

[jcarmello]

Life expectancy of proffesional American football players is 52 - 55 y.o. Just a statistic to throw around.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by jcarmello

Life expectancy of proffesional American football players is 52 - 55 y.o. Just a statistic to throw around.

Really?

[edit]
I checked it out: it is true and I am astonished!
Wow, this is ridiculous! - anyone has stats & figures for high level KD fighters (or Muai Tai, etc...)

It is not a widely disseminated, downloaded or discussed fact that the average life expectancy for all pro football players including all positions and backgrounds is 55 years. Several insurance carriers say it is 51 years. The Living Heart foundation:
Professional football players have a unique lifestyle. They come from diverse backgrounds and share a demanding exercise training program. Over the past 30 years, the body size of players has increased dramatically and training patterns have evolved into year round monitored exertion. The physical nature of the sport involves rigorous and aggressive contact. The emphasis on winning games is associated with a stressful work environment. The average duration of a playing career is about four years and the transition from elite athlete to working citizen may be difficult.
Anecdotal reports and two surveys suggest that musculoskeletal and cardiovascular problems are common in retirement. Rumors abound that the average life expectancy of players that play for 5 or more years is around 56 years. If this estimate were true, life expectancy for professional football players is significantly less than that for the USA population at large. It could also be speculated that the quality of life in later years is diminished in similar fashion.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Life_expec...ootball_player

There is an interesting discussion in the comments of this article "Francisco Rodriguez Dead: Boxer Dies After Collapsing At Fight" in the Huff Post.

Sorry, this is taking us away from the topic but may still deserve its own thread and discussion.
Osu!

[powerof0ne]

Hope my old high school buddy quits playing for a certain NFL team so I can still know him in 20 years...

I find this subject fascinating. Having overdone it and got sick I had to wise up.

The key thing is recovery. I know lots of people who train three times a day, but if they're working full time it usually becomes quantity not quality. They shuffle out for an early run, go to the gym at lunchtime and dojo at night. They soon just go through the motions as they're training the wrong way round* and permanently tired ...

*According to Kurz, "Work on speed or technique before working on strength, work on strength before working on endurance." Using that as a guide running am and weights at lunchtime before dojo pm is simply tiring us out, so our skill and speed training is compromised.

We should concentrate on quality, do less sessions but do them harder, then eat better and rest more. On arriving at the dojo after a day's rest we train sharper, everything is building us up not breaking us down.

I can see what Godai is getting at, and it's true the body can take tremendous training loads over extended periods. I think we shouldn't get confused though, we are not the SAS or Commando's, we don't have to carry 80lb packs high into the mountains and fight a battle at the end of it. Combat requires skill, bursts of power and anaerobic endurance. We train those attributes best with intensity, not volume.

Gary

[Ros]

Some research a few years ago showed that several immune function parameters were slightly reduced in athletes undertaking prolonged periods of intense training. The researchers theorised that the combination of the reductions leads to compromised resistance to several illnesses (hence why endurance athletes are apparently more likely to get respiratory tract infections).

If this is true, I would have thought it would be impossible to adapt to compromised immune function. My feeling is that although the human body can overcome great hardship, there must be a point where shutdown rather than adaptation occurs.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by Ros

(...)there must be a point where shutdown rather than adaptation occurs.

If you assimilate hardship or hard training to a pressure from the environnment, you are quite right.
An gradual increase on environmental pressure from optimal conditions to sub optimal (harder ones) will see a population first adapt, then some individuals will disappear (break down after reaching the limits of their adaptation, either in time/speed of change, or amplitude of the change), then possibly evolve, over the course of several generations.
If the amplitude of change is too wide, or too fast, or both, you may observe total extinction.

[friedmandu]

Originally Posted by GJEChamberlain

I find this subject fascinating. Having overdone it and got sick I had to wise up...
Gary

Golden advice in this whole post.

I just got into reading Kurz's books. I really like his writing style and general approach. It's also comforting to know that he's a trained martial artist, and his suggestions are often very specific to martial arts training. It's good to see that people have used his advice to produce results!

[Godai]

Some excellent posts here, thanks for the input. I always like to see how different people think. I believe that for those who are inquisitive enough, it sparks new thoughts and for those seeking knowledge it opens new doors. As well, for some of the newer trainees it could start them on a research journey or set them down a path. I truly believe that many of us train for years and eventually become complacent. I think we should always be thinking. I find that thinking in odd directions keeps us fresh and in the know. During our search for answers we come across all kinds of new information. I always thought that normal people think in black and white but that I thought in colors. I have had someone else explain it as a "web."

Thanks