»

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by MartialHero

Great post AshiharaKaicho and a very serious topic to consider. I believe that if one knows they are infected with this horrible disease, it doesn't make them a horrible person, however, i don't feel that it is morally acceptable to put yourself into a position to expose other people. I think the protection of life is more important than your desire to continue training martial arts. But this is just my opinion. Osu

You welcome. It would be honourable for those infected to be extra careful and to be aware that they can infect others. If only all people had such and attitude, then it would work. Locally, we have some some groups requesting fighters to include an HIV- test certificate - but that does not mean anything as there is a window period.

[MartialHero]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

You welcome. It would be honourable for those infected to be extra careful and to be aware that they can infect others. If only all people had such and attitude, then it would work. Locally, we have some some groups requesting fighters to include an HIV- test certificate - but that does not mean anything as there is a window period.

Osu yes, from what i've read it could take up to 6months for the virus to show up in blood work. That is one hell of a window period.... Osu

[powerof0ne]

Originally Posted by MartialHero

Osu yes, from what i've read it could take up to 6months for the virus to show up in blood work. That is one hell of a window period.... Osu

Yup, sure does. I once had a scare years ago and that was a scary 6 months that I kept to myself. Since that time I have been tested 1-2 times a year. I might be considered paranoid but for me I'd rather know than not know.
Osu!

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by MartialHero

Osu yes, from what i've read it could take up to 6months for the virus to show up in blood work. That is one hell of a window period.... Osu

And that is why I find it silly that some people insist fighters must have a negative certificate when they in fact could be infected. The certificate just creates false confidence ... when the focus should be on putting in measures of protection.

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

Yup, sure does. I once had a scare years ago and that was a scary 6 months that I kept to myself. Since that time I have been tested 1-2 times a year. I might be considered paranoid but for me I'd rather know than not know.
Osu!

I'm an opportunist ... donate blood at least 4-6 times per year and after every donation, the transfusion services does a test (for free) ...

[Suneido]

Powerofone said:

"Why would a bar fight cause more blood than a "karate fight"?"

Don't get me wrong, I didn't intend to belittle the original post and wasn't denying the possibility of it happening, just expressing the opinion that I think it's a lot less likely than the possibility of HIV transmitting during a bar fight.

Just to be realistic, how often do you see blood and where is it? In my experience, you usually see blood spatters on dogi from the attacker's grazed knuckles.



For sure, jagged toenails might occasionally scrape necks or blocking forearms (I hate that too!) but there's not likely to be any blood mixing going on in those situations.

In a bar fight, on the other hand, you would get the same bare knuckle injuries and scratches, but the fists are usually aiming for the face. And bloody lips and cut eyebrows meeting bare bloody knuckles repeatedly are a far more likely potential exchange point of HIV.

If my attitude seemed careless and lax, it's probably a reaction from living in Japan, which has an extremely low incidence of HIV and Aids compared to the rest of the world. I have never heard, even indirectly, of any karate fighter or other martial artist who had contracted Aids. If you have then I can certainly understand why the topic would become a worrying one.

I honestly had never even imagined 'Aids' and 'Karate' in the same sentence before, so I am grateful to AshiharaKaicho for pointing out this important and overlooked topic.

[Dent]

Osu!

It is worth it to not take it seriously?

What if Tommy Morrison wanted a match? Would you do it?

Seems simple to me. If you're bleeding, clean it up.

Now.

Osu!

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!It is worth it to not take it seriously?
Seems simple to me. If you're bleeding, clean it up. Now. Osu!

Anyone not wanting to take it seriously - well, one can write a good epitaphs for that person - unless it is his students ... then it's sad! Keep handy bleach around in the dojo or at tournaments for such instances.

[Suneido]

Originally Posted by Dent

It is worth it to not take it seriously?

I'm not sure, was that directed to me? I do believe this topic should be taken very seriously. It's very hard if not impossible to read "tone of voice" in a web posting, so I can understand if the last line of my post was misread as sarcasm, but I meant what I said.

Originally Posted by Dent

What if Tommy Morrison wanted a match? Would you do it?

I hadn't heard of him, so googled the name. Wow! Can't say I'd be racing to that fight, no. It's one thing to be brave and take risks, but as a father of two young kids, in this case I reckon it's not worth the risk.

Originally Posted by Dent

Seems simple to me. If you're bleeding, clean it up. Now.

Agreed. Our dojo is very clean that way. If any blood is shed during kumite it is wiped up ASAP (we use industrial alcohol rather than bleach - I know it kills bacteria but is alcohol effective for viruses?), and wounds are cleaned and dressed ASAP. Ditto in tournaments.

The photo of the dogi above was from regular kumite, actually with sparring gloves, but the gloves are fingerless and all those stains were from a cut on one guys second finger joint rather than the main knuckle which is covered (recall how the second joint juts out in an ippon ken). Those stains accumulated in a single round of kumite, after which the wound was dressed.

Despite the dramatic appearance, not a single drop of blood touched the dogi wearer's body. But this is not an excuse to be nonchalant.

Precautions are vital. Play with matches and you may well get burned.

Osu!

[powerof0ne]

I don't just do knockdown kumite when I spar. I do a lot of kickboxing and MT rules drills and sparring. It's not uncommon for a bloody nose or lip in that kind of sparring. Also not in knockdown rules depending who I'm doing kumite with.

What still surprises me but shouldn't is how often in BJJ, ne waza grappling, wrestling, etc. that you accidentally take a knee or knee somebody in the face and other "odd" things that happen that cause a lot of bleeding.

I trained with one individual who would gush out blood if you tapped his nose just right. He was a pro fighter at the time, too, go figure.

Long gone are the days of bleeding all over a heavy bag and others continue to train on it.

Lot of the bar and club fights I've been involved in personally involved little blood most of the time. However, I also wasn't taking a broken bottle or a knife to somebody or continuing to beat on them. Was more about kicking them out fast.
Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Suneido

I'm not sure, was that directed to me?

No, Suneido, an open question. (I like to step back and rephrase the questions as I perceive them. This usually helps me get a better perspective.)

Originally Posted by powerof0ne

I don't just do knockdown kumite when I spar. you accidentally take a knee or knee somebody in the face and other "odd" things that happen that cause a lot of bleeding.

Head to head contact. Not unusual for someone to come off with a cut. Whether the Beej or stand up or wrestling, or even KD, we aren't rams, and it shows.....

Osu!

[Frozenfussion]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

Something of interest - this article can also be found on

TRANSMISSION OF HIV IN MARTIAL ARTS

by Caryl Verrier, Advocate of the High Court of South Africa (Sandan WSKF Shotokan Karate)


A. The Facts

The following facts are posited:

Two martial artists, fighters X and Y, engage in a bout. Unbeknown to fighter Y, but known to fighter X, fighter X is HIV+. Fighter X fails to disclose his HIV+ status to fighter Y prior to the bout. During the course of the bout, both fighters sustain open wounds, fighter X bleeds into an open wound on fighter Y and fighter Y is infected with HIV.

B. The Enquiry

The questions raised are these:

Whether fighter X would be guilty of any crime for infecting fighter Y with HIV; and
Whether fighter X would be liable to fighter Y for damages in delict consequent upon his infecting fighter Y.

C. Disclosure

The right to privacy is enshrined in s 14 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa Act, 1996. Following such decisions as Bernstein v Bester NO 1996 (2) SA 751 (CC) and NM and Others v Smith and Others (Freedom of Expression Institute as Amicus Curiae) 2007 (5) SA 250 (CC), it is clear that the right to privacy extends to protecting disclosure of one’s private and confidential medical information, including one’s HIV status. There is, in other words, no general duty to disclose one’s HIV status. One cannot be compelled to disclose one’s HIV status.

That said, where non-disclosure of one’s HIV+ status is coupled with conduct which causes transmission of HIV to another, legal liability may follow; criminal liability from the conduct through which HIV is transmitted and civil liability from the non-disclosure.

D. Criminal Liability

Attempted murder

A conviction of attempted murder would require proof of, inter alia, the intention to kill, either in the form of dolus directus or dolus eventualis. It would be sufficient for a finding of dolus eventualis, however, that the accused knew himself (or herself) to be HIV+, knew that HIV could be transmitted by his (or her) bleeding into an open wound on another and knew that HIV could cause death. (See C R Snyman, Criminal Law 4ed at 186--187 and S v Nyalunga [2005] JOL 13254 (T).)

Given the bare minimum of facts upon which dolus eventualis could be proved, it is our view that fighter X would likely be found to have had the requisite intention to kill and would therefore be convicted of the attempted murder of fighter Y.

Assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm (assault GBH)

A conviction of assault GBH would require proof of, inter alia, the intention to assault and the intention to do grievous bodily harm, either in the form of dolus directus or dolus eventualis.

With ‘grievous bodily harm’ defined as ‘... connot[ing] serious injury to the health of the victim ...’ (see S v R 1998 (1) SACR 166 (W) at 170), there can be no doubt that transmission of HIV would qualify as ‘grievous bodily harm’. There can further be no doubt that, by definition, a participant in a fight would have the intention to assault.

In our view, therefore, fighter X would be found to have had the intention to assault and the intention to do grievous bodily harm and would be convicted of assault GBH.

...continued/

I think that may be the reason there are gonna be medical tests in this ALL ASIA tournament in India (IKO-1). What you have written is scaring the living daylights off me!

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Frozenfussion

I think that may be the reason there are gonna be medical tests in this ALL ASIA tournament in India (IKO-1). What you have written is scaring the living daylights off me!

This is something of concern and care should be taken in the dojo and at tournaments. However, many times I am really confused because the organisers request an HIV clearance certificate - but it does not make provision for the window period so someone could be infected and not know and gets cleared to compete and could then possibly infect another if proper care is not taken.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

This is something of concern and care should be taken in the dojo and at tournaments. However, many times I am really confused because the organisers request an HIV clearance certificate - but it does not make provision for the window period so someone could be infected and not know and gets cleared to compete and could then possibly infect another if proper care is not taken.

This is absolutely correct - and it simply demonstrates that the organisers are not getting good medical advice.

The only safe rule is a blood-bin. Any bleeding, no matter how trivial, and you MUST be off the floor. It is not only HIV that can be transmitted. Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C are also a concern, and the only true safety lies in safe universal precautions.

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by seienchin

This is absolutely correct - and it simply demonstrates that the organisers are not getting good medical advice.

Thanks for re-inforcing. The sad thing is I've mentioned it to a few, but they just don't seem to understand - or perhaps it is because it is me saying so.

The only safe rule is a blood-bin. Any bleeding, no matter how trivial, and you MUST be off the floor. It is not only HIV that can be transmitted. Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C are also a concern, and the only true safety lies in safe universal precautions.

You right - that is the is secret if one can call it such. Adequate precautions.

B.t.w. have you heard of "SURETEST" - the WKO President is involved with this company and one can test HIV, DOA,TB, etc. and can get the results in a matter of minutes.

[Frozenfussion]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

Thanks for re-inforcing. The sad thing is I've mentioned it to a few, but they just don't seem to understand - or perhaps it is because it is me saying so.



You right - that is the is secret if one can call it such. Adequate precautions.

B.t.w. have you heard of "SURETEST" - the WKO President is involved with this company and one can test HIV, DOA,TB, etc. and can get the results in a matter of minutes.

Immediate HIV tests are pretty common here in Malaysia as it is a prerequisite when getting married (since 2008). I think I better ask the organizers to seriously consider it. But what really scares me is the needle that will be used to pinch the blood out.... I know of unfortunate incidents in India...

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Frozenfussion

Immediate HIV tests are pretty common here in Malaysia as it is a prerequisite when getting married (since 2008). I think I better ask the organizers to seriously consider it. But what really scares me is the needle that will be used to pinch the blood out.... I know of unfortunate incidents in India...

Fortunately in many countries, new needles are used and should be the standard. With this kit, it's all separate stuff. But you right, one should be making use of this at each and every event where possible.

[Frozenfussion]

Dear Ashiharakaicho,

I am unable to locate the link that you had posted where the article originally appeared. DO you have any active links? I would like to bring this matter up at the All Asian Tournament this December as I am one of the participants as well.

OSU!

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Frozenfussion

Dear Ashiharakaicho,
I am unable to locate the link that you had posted where the article originally appeared. DO you have any active links? I would like to bring this matter up at the All Asian Tournament this December as I am one of the participants as well. OSU!

Try http://www.karatesa.org/html2/hiv_in...tial_arts.html but if you like, email me and I can send you the article in PDF. (info@ashiharakarate.org)

[Frozenfussion]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

Try http://www.karatesa.org/html2/hiv_in...tial_arts.html but if you like, email me and I can send you the article in PDF. (info@ashiharakarate.org)

I've emailed you. Please send me the article. Thank you very much.

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Frozenfussion

I've emailed you. Please send me the article. Thank you very much.

Just mailed it to you. Enjoy!