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[SteveK]

With all this talk of weapons and arming up - do not forget the Humble Pencil

You Tube

Osu

[bobh]

Originally Posted by meguro

It seems like I've got juji uke on my mind. Here's another application. It happens at the 1:30 mark.[...]

Here's another I like from Pinan sono go

You Tube

I picked one filmed in a shinkyokushin dojo

[meguro]

Originally Posted by bobh

I picked one filmed in a shinkyokushin dojo

Osu! Bobh, I think that's the one that started the ball rolling.

[bobh]

Originally Posted by meguro

Osu! Bobh, I think that's the one that started the ball rolling.

? Oh, I didn't see this in this thread.

Originally Posted by meguro

[...]

Here's one approach to what we know as the juji uke. Wait for it. It starts around 5:00.

Where is juji uke around 5:00? Maybe I have the wrong video?

Originally Posted by meguro

[...]
I thought I'd add this video to counterbalance [...]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI

On the one hand, I do crave more content, more technique. If we consider the reality of violence, however, so long as we focus on unarmed fighting, what we do may be no more than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.[...]

An eye opening video. So how do you defend against such an attack? I say running and besides that preemption is the only chance you have. What if you were in that class, and when the instructor said "open your eyes" in the last drill, you did what you should and immediately shattered your partners jaw and windpipe? Would you be applauded? I'd really like to watch more of that guy to see what he does recommend.

Originally Posted by meguro

[...]
With a gun and some cover.

Don't you live in a big city with 34,500 uniformed policemen? Don't you have a cell phone you can use to call 911 or hit the knife-wielder over the head? (That is why old school brick cell phones were better for self-defense). And although you did say you were joking about the gun, you had better be -- because you no choice but to joke or become a criminal.

To answer about deploying in such a situation, it is impossible in reaction. However, if you are able to run first and get behind a car, for example, maybe you can deploy and stand a chance. Sometimes even scramble backwards, fall and deploy (with practice) can at least give you a chance. This all makes me incredibly sad and helpless feeling.

Originally Posted by slaine

I to thought the initial part of of the last video was quite good as I feel most knife/blade defence videos and instructors out there at the moment are bulls**t [...]

On this point... In a local facebook group here in Connecticut, a women was touting her shihan down at a Shito Ryu school in town. After a report in the paper about a miscreant who threatened a couple with a knife (empty as it was), she wrote in the forum "that's why she feels lucky her shihan already taught her own to defend against a knife so she can feel safe." I almost toyed with responding. But it would have looked like a pissing contest especially since people would see who I was. Besides, it is hard to talk to the indoctrinated. This lady is always in that group and she is a Shito Shihan groupie. I really feel sorry and upset that she is being given overly dangerous misguided self-confidence. Maybe I should just post that video (or ask someone to do it for me).

[slaine]

I have to agree with your last point , it's a major problem with people being given this false confidence to deal with knife attacks , quite frankly it scares me more to think people are being thought this stuff than a bladed attack itself , these problems seem forward engineered to me , he comes at you like this you do this and so on , it doesn't happen , you should be getting thought as soon as something feels wrong ''IT IS'' and get out of there , hit first , push away and run but do something as soon as your prehistoric senses teel you you're in danger , don't wait to see the weapon and then decide what defence you're going to employ .

[meguro]

Originally Posted by bobh

? Oh, I didn't see this in this thread.


Where is juji uke around 5:00? Maybe I have the wrong video?

Double handed technique like juji uke do not necessarily require that both hands are actually blocking, if indeed they are blocking at all. One hand may block, the other passing or trapping. At the 5 minute mark, the demonstrator starts to employ both arms, one for blocking the other for passing. It is at this time that you can start to see the arms briefly forming an "x." As the video progresses, 9:39, you can see the "x" clearly.

An eye opening video. So how do you defend against such an attack? I say running and besides that preemption is the only chance you have. What if you were in that class, and when the instructor said "open your eyes" in the last drill, you did what you should and immediately shattered your partners jaw and windpipe? Would you be applauded? I'd really like to watch more of that guy to see what he does recommend.

Once an attacker has closed to within 21' (Dent's links) with a blade, you are pretty much a pin cushion. Situational awareness/avoidance is the only solution I fear.

That said, if pressed up against a wall, getting control of the knife wielding arm is the first priority.

Don't you live in a big city with 34,500 uniformed policemen? Don't you have a cell phone you can use to call 911 or hit the knife-wielder over the head? (That is why old school brick cell phones were better for self-defense). And although you did say you were joking about the gun, you had better be -- because you no choice but to joke or become a criminal.

To answer about deploying in such a situation, it is impossible in reaction. However, if you are able to run first and get behind a car, for example, maybe you can deploy and stand a chance. Sometimes even scramble backwards, fall and deploy (with practice) can at least give you a chance. This all makes me incredibly sad and helpless feeling.

I do live in a big city with many policeman. I also do not carry a firearm. The only blade I have on my person is on the little Swiss Army knife I use as a key fob. My point about mentioning weapons, and perhaps all self defense training, is that once you are truly ambushed, any response you might be able to mount was already figured into the bad guy's attack plan. It's like IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan and their success against well trained and armed troops. My approach to SP is to use awareness and avoidance, and soft skills including calling for help. If I must defend myself, I feel it is partly my fault for getting in that situation.

To address jcarmello's question, striking while retreating, I would circle rather than step back.

[Tay]

Originally Posted by slaine

he comes at you like this you do this and so on , it doesn't happen , you should be getting thought as soon as something feels wrong ''IT IS'' and get the f**k out of there , hit first , push away and run but do something as soon as your prehistoric senses teel you you're in danger , don't wait to see the weapon and then decide what defence you're going to employ .

"best defense is attack"
A huge part of self defense is to be aware of your surrounding and potential threats before the attack even occurs.

[bobh]

Originally Posted by meguro

Double handed technique like juji uke do not necessarily require that both hands are actually blocking, if indeed they are blocking at all. One hand may block, the other passing or trapping. At the 5 minute mark, the demonstrator starts to employ both arms, one for blocking the other for passing. It is at this time that you can start to see the arms briefly forming an "x." As the video progresses, 9:39, you can see the "x" clearly.

Okay... a little more liberal interpretation (not that there's anything wrong with that). BTW, I don't think it's blocking either -- at least not in the way it's typically shown.

Originally Posted by meguro

Once an attacker has closed to within 21' (Dent's links) with a blade, you are pretty much a pin cushion. Situational awareness/avoidance is the only solution I fear.

True

Originally Posted by meguro

That said, if pressed up against a wall, getting control of the knife wielding arm is the first priority.

given the timing it might be the first priority to disable the attackers central processing unit. (if you have the chance for the preemptive act) Maybe more of an equal priority? I can't disagree though.

Originally Posted by meguro

I do live in a big city with many policeman. I also do not carry a firearm. The only blade I have on my person is on the little Swiss Army knife I use as a key fob. My point about mentioning weapons, and perhaps all self defense training, is that once you are truly ambushed, any response you might be able to mount was already figured into the bad guy's attack plan. It's like IED's in Iraq and Afghanistan and their success against well trained and armed troops. My approach to SP is to use awareness and avoidance, and soft skills including calling for help. If I must defend myself, I feel it is partly my fault for getting in that situation.

Agreed. I was tongue-in-cheek about a few things. I think being armed helps when you have warning or preemption. Being on the LI RR with Colin Ferguson shooting passenger 1 then 2 then 3. If I'm number 9, I can probably do pretty well and maybe even save numbers 8,7, and 6.

Originally Posted by meguro

To address jcarmello's question, striking while retreating, I would circle rather than step back.

Yes!

[bobh]

Originally Posted by Tay

"best defense is attack"
A huge part of self defense is to be aware of your surrounding and potential threats before the attack even occurs.

It does come down to this in the end, huh?

[meguro]

Originally Posted by bobh

Okay... a little more liberal interpretation (not that there's anything wrong with that). BTW, I don't think it's blocking either -- at least not in the way it's typically shown.

Osu! It takes a while, but I wanted the progression from single arm to double arm technique to develop. By 9:39, boom, the demonstrator whips out the x block. The way it is typically shown would get the user hurt, imo.

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



I'm going to lay the blame in two places.

1) Organizations. It's an easy benchmark to provide a new Kata for each grade. Sharing the good stuff will separate out, divide, lose etc. members.

2) Me. And every other instructor that is following organizational dictates, rather than doing what is best for the student. (And I'm having a real crisis about this.)

Off the wall concept. Teach A, practice A, partner work A, allow students to express A as they can. Ditto B. C etc. Kata is for solo work. Either in the Dojo, or preferably at home. Kata for grading will simply be a demonstration of the movements, but the real questions will be answered in the Bunkai demonstration.

Low level students can face pre-arranged attacks from a distance, mid level the same from any range, and advanced students randomized attacks, Shodan and above vs multiple attackers and with/ against weapons.

Here's the kicker. This is time and energy intensive. That means taking out the majority of the Kata. Yup. Maybe 3-5 for Shodan, and another for every additional three years of training. I don't see any mainstream orgs buying into this any time soon.

Do you?

Osu!

Osu!

this is a great thread, so much so it’s compelled me to finally register and get involved (I will introduce myself in the introductions sections as well - hopefully later today).

I’m with Dent 100% on his statement regarding kumite being counterproductive to the true purpose of Karate, and it looks as though the majority wouldn’t argue with this. I’m of the view that kata, bunkai and drilling it are necessary requirements to become a fully rounded karateka (along with training awareness, avoidance, escalation, pre-emptive striking and so on).

I really enjoy doing kumite, kihon, and kata (even when simply training for the aesthetics of it), they are great for fitness, discipline, conditioning, and sport, but without the understanding behind kata techniques and their applications (and drilling them) Karate as a self defence system isn't whole (in my opinion). In my experience bunkai is rarely covered, and even more rarely drilled; let alone the other aspects of self-defence I mentioned above.

For almost the last year my mind has been going over all this as I’ve was feeling that I wasn’t the karateka I wanted to be. To fill the gaps I’ve now dropped going to one of the dojos I go to so I can spend the time training with a partner and concentrating on the skills needed for self-defence including drilling bunkai. I’ve also spent a lot of time researching practical applications and found a wealth of knowledge in materials from Iain Abernethy and Geoff Thompson who I seem to be on the same wave length as.

My question is, why is little emphasis placed upon the application of kata, is too much placed on competitive kumite and aesthetic kata?

I think Dent began to answer this question in the quote above when answering why aren’t we drilling and grading application

If it’s not being covered in dojos much now, was it ever really covered, or has it just been pushed back to favour kumite/grading requirement kata, so do enough Kyokushin instructors understand self-defence and bunkai sufficiently to instruct in it? (I really would love to know what you as instructors and students’ experiences are, it may give me hope as perhaps I’m just not seeing enough of it).

So, does anyone care if bunkia is an afterthought?

I do! Which is why I’m going outside my regular training, and would ultimately like to one day instruct and emphasise self-defence and bunkai more. BUT, if people don’t train for the self-defence aspect then does it actually matter? Perhaps not, but whatever people’s reasons for doing Karate there is likely to be a belief (even subconsciously) that through kumite, kihon, and non applied kata they are learning to ‘handle’ themselves, even if it’s not their primary reason for training! As raised in the original thread, ultimately misunderstanding kumite’s place in the Karate system could lead people to believe they are safe should they find themselves in an attack situation.

Therefore a couple of questions:

1) Should it be made clearer during instruction what is being taught as a self-defence system, and what isn’t?
And
2) If people do care about bunkai, then is there anything that can really be done to address it from a syllabus point of view, or is it something we just need to go out and discover for ourselves?

Would be great to know your thoughts.
OSU.

(Crikey – that’s a long post for a newbie, sorry so many questions! Hope I’ve stuck to forum rules and I’m in line with this thread, great forum BTW)

[kanku]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Osu!

this is a great thread, so much so it’s compelled me to finally register and get involved (I will introduce myself in the introductions sections as well - hopefully later today).

I’m with Dent 100% on his statement regarding kumite being counterproductive to the true purpose of Karate, and it looks as though the majority wouldn’t argue with this. I’m of the view that kata, bunkai and drilling it are necessary requirements to become a fully rounded karateka (along with training awareness, avoidance, escalation, pre-emptive striking and so on).

I really enjoy doing kumite, kihon, and kata (even when simply training for the aesthetics of it), they are great for fitness, discipline, conditioning, and sport, but without the understanding behind kata techniques and their applications (and drilling them) Karate as a self defence system isn't whole (in my opinion). In my experience bunkai is rarely covered, and even more rarely drilled; let alone the other aspects of self-defence I mentioned above.

For almost the last year my mind has been going over all this as I’ve was feeling that I wasn’t the karateka I wanted to be. To fill the gaps I’ve now dropped going to one of the dojos I go to so I can spend the time training with a partner and concentrating on the skills needed for self-defence including drilling bunkai. I’ve also spent a lot of time researching practical applications and found a wealth of knowledge in materials from Iain Abernethy and Geoff Thompson who I seem to be on the same wave length as.

My question is, why is little emphasis placed upon the application of kata, is too much placed on competitive kumite and aesthetic kata?

I think Dent began to answer this question in the quote above when answering why aren’t we drilling and grading application

If it’s not being covered in dojos much now, was it ever really covered, or has it just been pushed back to favour kumite/grading requirement kata, so do enough Kyokushin instructors understand self-defence and bunkai sufficiently to instruct in it? (I really would love to know what you as instructors and students’ experiences are, it may give me hope as perhaps I’m just not seeing enough of it).

So, does anyone care if bunkia is an afterthought?

I do! Which is why I’m going outside my regular training, and would ultimately like to one day instruct and emphasise self-defence and bunkai more. BUT, if people don’t train for the self-defence aspect then does it actually matter? Perhaps not, but whatever people’s reasons for doing Karate there is likely to be a belief (even subconsciously) that through kumite, kihon, and non applied kata they are learning to ‘handle’ themselves, even if it’s not their primary reason for training! As raised in the original thread, ultimately misunderstanding kumite’s place in the Karate system could lead people to believe they are safe should they find themselves in an attack situation.

Therefore a couple of questions:

1) Should it be made clearer during instruction what is being taught as a self-defence system, and what isn’t?
And
2) If people do care about bunkai, then is there anything that can really be done to address it from a syllabus point of view, or is it something we just need to go out and discover for ourselves?

Would be great to know your thoughts.
OSU.

(Crikey – that’s a long post for a newbie, sorry so many questions! Hope I’ve stuck to forum rules and I’m in line with this thread, great forum BTW)

Osu Monkey!

While i agree with Dent, at least kumite makes you face your fears, let`s you know what it`s like to get hit and most importantly hold your nerve in a confrontational situation?..You are also on a good "wavelength" imo.

[SteveK]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



I'm going to lay the blame in two places.

1) Organizations. It's an easy benchmark to provide a new Kata for each grade. Sharing the good stuff will separate out, divide, lose etc. members.

2) Me. And every other instructor that is following organizational dictates, rather than doing what is best for the student. (And I'm having a real crisis about this.)

Off the wall concept. Teach A, practice A, partner work A, allow students to express A as they can. Ditto B. C etc. Kata is for solo work. Either in the Dojo, or preferably at home. Kata for grading will simply be a demonstration of the movements, but the real questions will be answered in the Bunkai demonstration.

Low level students can face pre-arranged attacks from a distance, mid level the same from any range, and advanced students randomized attacks, Shodan and above vs multiple attackers and with/ against weapons.

Here's the kicker. This is time and energy intensive. That means taking out the majority of the Kata. Yup. Maybe 3-5 for Shodan, and another for every additional three years of training. I don't see any mainstream orgs buying into this any time soon.

Do you?

Osu!

Just re read this Dent - I think you have also described the continuous ongoing concern in our education system and what all of us teachers face each day

[sandman]

Originally Posted by Monkey

Osu!

this is a great thread, so much so it’s compelled me to finally register and get involved (I will introduce myself in the introductions sections as well - hopefully later today).

[...]

Great first post monkey - repped!

[Havamal]

Originally Posted by kanku

Osu Monkey!

While i agree with Dent, at least kumite makes you face your fears, let`s you know what it`s like to get hit and most importantly hold your nerve in a confrontational situation?..You are also on a good "wavelength" imo.

At least kumite allows karate-ka to observe the (lack) of fighting spirit and the closed mindedness of being 'intoxicated' to a comfortable narrow bandwidth of contact skills (moderator edit here)


It's not obvious to all karate-ka that karate involves direct study of unarmed & unpredictable combat while keeping it safe enough to do it again the next day.

A karate-ka benefits from having at least two compatiable teachers, to gain perspective, to ignore the bad and build on the good. Teachers point the way: Each of us, along with our fellow advanced students, are forging our own art.

[Monkey]

Originally Posted by kanku

Osu Monkey!

While i agree with Dent, at least kumite makes you face your fears, let`s you know what it`s like to get hit and most importantly hold your nerve in a confrontational situation?..You are also on a good "wavelength" imo.

Completely agree Kanku, kumite does make you face your fears (must say I still have a thing about spiders though, kumite hasn't knock that out of me!, and in knockdown if someone has the ability to stand up and try to knockout someone who is likely to be their friend, then hopefully the same thing can be mustered against an enemy in a confrontation!
My fear is that unless the distinction between kumite and self defense technique is more apparent to students (and if SD is not taught more) then we may have people thinking that because they can handle themselves on the mat they can handle an attack situation, or worse, because they can handle themsleves on the mat they miss chances or are unwilling to run and they engage in a fight rather than get the heck out of there!

[meguro]

Kumite may also convince the inexperienced to fight rather than to flee. The worst thing is to see small fighters being pitted against large ones. While the spectacle of David and Goliath being re-enacted might satisfy some, the desire to see underdogs prevail allows for unnatural rules, like no grabbing or face punching, which when observed in the real world can lead to bad outcomes. The no grabbing and no face punching rules allow karateka to believe that there is a safe pocket to fight from, close up. Close up to a bigger and stronger opponent? In kumite or maybe in a Jackie Chan movie.

[anaticula]

Originally Posted by bobh

Here's another I like from Pinan sono go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddKPA...2&feature=plcp

I picked one filmed in a shinkyokushin dojo

I didn't expect to find myself in this thread :P (I'm obviously the one who's not Iain)

[bobh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_ypK...eature=rela...

I like Rich's Senshido and have a very close friend that runs Senshido Connecticut.

I see kata. I may not have at one time. But now it's jumping at me over and over and over... almost every single movement. Take every technique and principle Rich shows and map it onto any knockdown, kudo, UFC event. It's doubtful 10% will map. Every single application, movement, target, and principle maps to kata we practice. 100%. And the real problem is that it can't be seen by most people because of how kata has been taught, used, practiced, and bastardized.

Rich got to the right conclusion but didn't use kata to get there. However, a correct understanding of the kata and kihon with the right knowledge... along with the principles and applications like those taught in Senshido can get you there.

If Rich Dimitri were to remove the partner and create a kata (without a video or even written instruction) what would it look like? How would he represent wrapping his arm around the attacker and driving his palm into the chin face followed up by grabbing the ear and twisting clockwise and downward?

Now take his most perfect kata and pass it to someone who's never taken his courses and make him repeat it. The over years perpetuation punch-block-kick applications and interpretations to his kata. Lastly, enter his kata into competition after competition and let people modify it so that they win. And so on and so on. What would it look like then?

It frustrates me. And how many times do we have to have the discussion from the very beginning and start over. We never get to the meat of the issue because we have to rehash the same old stuff over and over. We don't progress because we still have to start with "there's grappling and throws in the kata?" Or argue that kata is really about fighting in the way people did 100 years ago or in a kung fu movie. You dod't think people fought exactly like this video? There's new stuff there? A Roman soldier would be shocked by someone employing the techniques in the video? "What is this strange method? Are you from the future?"

Argh.
Sigh.

[seienchin]

Originally Posted by bobh

"What is this strange method? Are you from the future?"

Argh.
Sigh.

At last! an explanation for all those fights I didn't win or was too wise to have! Time travelling! I knew there was something fishy.....