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[meguro]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Indeed meguro, proactivity is a very big part of the learning, but does that mean that the teacher becomes obsolete?

That depends on the student and the teacher, Fred. Eventually, the student surpasses the teacher. That's certainly the model in academics. University students, I should hope, are not studying under their grammar school teachers. By the time one is in university and graduate school, there's little spoon feeding.

[bobh]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Osu,


- You go to the dojo and Senpai or Sensei teaches you.
- Three or four times a year, Senpai & Sensei go to a seminar; you go too, but on Sunday morning, there is an instructors only where Shihan dispenses the latest changes in the kata and (you are hoping) trains your instructors into more advanced karate.
- Like a wave of matryoshka, you believe that Shihan also gets his fair share of training with his own teachers...

But, do you really know who is at the start of the daisy chain? Who is teaching your teacher? Does it really happen? How do you know?

Who teaches the teachers?


Osu!

“Karate is my life. It is my subject of study. It is like a cloud with nothing substantial to grab hold of. I challenge karate by practicing everyday and I attempt to grasp something from it, though in the most part I am not able to come away with very much." -- Morio Higaonna

[ushideshinidan]

Hummmm....
FredInChina...If I understand where you’re going with this question (and your answers), you wonder who teaches Kencho Matsui or Shihan Kenji Midori and all our great “inspirations” right?...
Osu!

[gotapex]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Sounds good got apex; who is teaching Yamaki Shihan?

From what I understand (and I could be wrong), the same person who teaches a researcher... nobody.

He is still involved with training together with his team, and figuring out/furthering his art. However, is there a person responsible for directly passing down their knowledge to him? I sort of doubt it.

[Phoenix]

This is a SECRET . . .

My students know the awnser.

Training, teaching & learning every day.

If you stop learning . . . then will be over.

This is true....... You can teach and share all your knowledge, but there is always something you can learn from others everyday. It's a big circle in witch we all learn from the teachers while the teachers learn from the students

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by meguro

Being taught is a passive activity, and worse depends on an all knowing teacher of the teacher. At a certain point, we must all take responsibility for our continuing education.

The questions are: When.......? Who.....? What.....? Where....? How.......? And the big one. Why.....?

Osu!

[meguro]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!



The questions are: When.......? Who.....? What.....? Where....? How.......? And the big one. Why.....?

Osu!

Osu!

When? That would depend on the individual. Some may never reach this point. I'd have to say that when sensei can no longer provide satisfactory answers, it's time.

Who? That would depend on where the individual is located, and how far he or she is willing to travel. It is a hit or miss type situation. The next guru may provide no answers at all. Again, it depends on the individual's ability to figure things out.

What? This is a topic I explore in my blog. Short answer, look where the influence of Chinese Martial Arts is the greatest: Shorin Ryu, Kuntao Silat (FMA), other styles of Silat. I would avoid crosstraining in other Karate (not talking about Okinawan karate here) for the simple reason that the perspective would be nearly identical and therefore not as revealing. Note, I am not suggesting that CMA is the ultimate, only that it is the root and understanding that explains a lot.

Where? Similar to who, but if you are in the NYC area you are in luck.

How? Seminars are great. YouTube is a fantastic resource. Getting together with like minded karateka, again a plus if you're in the NYC area. Read.

Why? For instructors, the incentive would be to maintain authority in all things karate. Because, "Because I said so," only works for kids. For myself, I gots ta know. Some folks never ask why. That's ok too, less work and no mysteries to solve.

[Deaken]

I think the key is collaboration. Shihan Gilbert explained to me that in the absence of any seniore person to review me, do it with my seniore students and other instructors. I think this is partially good.

What that comment really help me reflect on is collaborating with people from other groups, connected styles of knockdown etc. Work with your peers and always learn. Be humble and look upwards as Sosai says. Every opportunity is a learning one. Just my thoughts. OSU.

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Deaken

I think the key is collaboration. Shihan Gilbert explained to me that in the absence of any seniore person to review me, do it with my seniore students and other instructors. I think this is partially good.

I can but concur - my students have been my source of learning and inspiration. Getting them to remind me when I am lazy and to push me as I push them has been the best thing that I could ever do.

[Dent]

Osu!

Thank you all for your perspectives. Meguro, your When is very valid.

Osu!

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by meguro

(...) The next guru (...)

Isn't the word "guru" a bit pejorative in your sentence?
Maybe I am just projecting my own psychosis.

Originally Posted by ushideshinidan

Hummmm....
FredInChina...If I understand where you’re going with this question (and your answers), you wonder who teaches Kencho Matsui or Shihan Kenji Midori and all our great “inspirations” right?...
Osu!

Only a partial understanding UshiDeshiNidan.
It is true that I've asked myself this question, but I am certainly not wasting much time looking that high up.
There were two reasons why I asked:
- When I look at the BB around me, I am genuinely wondering if they understand that their learning has just started, and if they do, why don't they seek more of it; maybe they do not know where to look.
- Sometimes the question is the answer.


Steven Pressfield in The War Of Art wrote:
"Tiger woods is the greatest golfer in the world. Yet he has a teacher; he works with Butch Harmon. And Tiger doesn't endure his instruction or suffer through it - he revels in it. It's his keenest professional joy to get out there on the practice tee with Butch, to learn more about the game he loves.
Tiger Woods is the consummate professional. It would never occur to him, as it would to an amateur, that he knows everything out on his own. On the contrary, he seeks out the most knowledgeable teacher and listens with both ears. The student of the game knows that the levels of revelation that can unfold in golf, as in any art, are inexhaustible."

Please read that again...
and again...

When I was in business, I sought advisors, mentors, coaches, teachers... people that could show me, guide me, teach me, educate me, draw the best out of me...

It is not about golf, or business, or karate!

I do pity anyone that has nowhere or nobody to turn to for guidance and/or learning.



Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by FredInChina

I do pity anyone that has nowhere or nobody to turn to for guidance and/or learning.

As I feel for those who have all the opportunity in the world, but never take it.

Osu!

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by Dent

As I feel for those who have all the opportunity in the world, but never take it.

Indeed, it has never been easier, in the history of Humanity!


Osu!

[meguro]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Isn't the word "guru" a bit pejorative in your sentence?
Maybe I am just projecting my own psychosis.

It can be, but it wasn't my intention. I call my FMA instructor Guro.

[FredInChina]

Ahhh, thank you for this clarification Meguro


Osu!

[bobh]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Ahhh, thank you for this clarification Meguro


Osu!

meguro == Me Guro


?

BTW, not guru?