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Old 05-04-2012, 01:20 PM   #41
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I have often wondered that instead of kicking and punching bags why somebody hasn`t designed a life size free standing humanoid type bag which could be adjustable for whatever one wants to do, so the punching and kicking is more realistic...i understand they could be expensive to start with but it would inject a bit of realism into bag work and one could target areas marked on the dummy, i have seen basic ones but nothing realistic....so thigh kicking is on the thigh, the floating rib area is clearly marked and i would imagine cracking one of these around the head could be quite satisfying!!

Who is going to admit they are that dummy....but all joking apart i think this could be taking training to another level?

Fred, get on the phone to your Chinese factories!
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:58 PM   #42
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You did not like this one Kanku?



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Osu!
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:12 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredInChina View Post
You did not like this one Kanku?



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Osu!
Like it fred, what sort of $
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:32 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by FredInChina View Post
Back of the envelope, I'd say 350-400$ per piece for 300+ pieces delivered at one port in the UK or the US. (direct China factory price)
That would put the retail price at 6-700$ (maybe more), + freight.

Dunno if K4L could gather enough orders in one location though.


Osu!
Getting factory prices is what we do here; the problem to solve is the cost of the logistics; that is shipping one item is still really impractical from China (that will come, but not there yet!); shipping 5-10,000$ worth of merchandise could work, but we'd need to really have a sales effort for that.

I am of two minds on this, I know it would really benefit the community to have access to competitive direct factory prices, but I also do not want to make K4L into a commercial outlet.
Maybe someone has an idea to solve the dilemma?


Osu!
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:49 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dent View Post
Osu!





(And why isn't this stuff the stuff of gradings?)

Osu!
the way i see it, there are 3 reasons:

1. over the decades kyokushin has become far too sport oriented and it has focused on what characterizes it and garners great pictures and videos: stand-up game and people getting kicked in the head

2. karate by itself is predominantly stand-up fighting and this will influence the percentage of ground/standing fighting during tests

3. (and here is where it gets sticky) i think that most instructors of kyokushin either dont have enough skill in ground fighting to give that to their students OR they dont FEEL they have enough skill to give that to their students.


but the question remains: what is stopping us from changing, while remaining true to our history and heritage?
and the answer is: millions of dogma-oriented thinkers in our associations and around us.
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:08 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
Even more so, what are the odds that a skilled MMA fighter tries to assault me??? most thugs carry knives and don't act alone, I'm not so concerned that somebody is going to try to armlock me when i walk down the street.

I see Karate as a sport, a set of techniques and skills that one tries to perfect and gets satisfaction by doing so. Kata, kihon can be seen as a unique performing art that don't translate very well to anything else. Kumite is almost an unrelated activity. As a side effect, people may learn some defensive skills, but it seems clear to me that a large part of the training isn't about self defense (nor is it about figthing).

So why karate should evolve (let's say kyokushin karate)? karate is karate, just like tennis is tennis. If you want to keep knockdown and take off kata and add some jujitsu, why not, but it's not karate anymore. That's why there are so many styles. That's how evolution is taking place. We don't have to think about it, it's nature. MMA is the evolution of other sports, so is Kyokushin, and judo, and shotokan...
there is so much folly in the thinking that there is "self defense", "sport", and "traditional" martial arts. it is limiting to believe this and reduces living arts to lifeless dogma that asks no more of its students than that they show up twice a week to kick and punch the air.

and to your first remark let me also tell you something you probably already know: for men there are two general and broad distinctions of violence - criminal violence (the kind you describe above), and alpha male violence. if you are male between the ages of alive and dead then the odds of you being attacked by a thug are thankfully low and statistically going lower according to DOJ statistics.

however, your odds of being involved in alpha male violence are starkly higher. ever looked at a girl? ever accidentally bumped into someone on a crowded subway? ever made eye contact with another guy? ever rooted for the opposite team at a football game? ever been doing nothing at all but there were drunk men around? all these normal instances can place you in the sights of some roid-raging mongoloid. so what do you think the odds are that this neanderthal is a fan of mma and is a little better at his ground game than you are?

our art, which most of us train in hoping that it, if needed, will protect us one day, must include curriculum to handle this new reality.
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Last edited by FighterforLife; 05-04-2012 at 03:27 PM. Reason: sounded too aggressive
Old 05-04-2012, 10:44 PM   #47
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Osu! Interesting thread.

Back in the old days, in pre-industrial Japan, the average karateka, primarily in

Okinawa would have to learn maybe 3-5 kata in his whole style. Even this was

considered "pushing" it as far has having too much kata. It was believed that one

kata was a complete system in itself. Aside from kata, Hojo Undo (Body hardening and

physical conditioning) with weighted clubs, nigiri game, makiwara training and hanmidachi

etc. were the norm to complement some of the specific Bunkai in the katas for real

world fighting. This type of conditioning has been replaced by modern weightlifting etc.

However, I like a combination of the old school Okinawan conditioning with modern

physical conditioning.

The point I am trying to make is, after Japan become an industry and guys like

Shotokan master, Gichin Funakoshi created karate as a business model, the amount

of katas one had to learn per style skyrocketed. You couple that with the new

tournament phenomena of the 1940's, kata was learned for belt testing and to win

trophies at the tournament. A lot of the dangerous moves were kept on the backburner

so that children can learn karate at P.E class in a safe environment. This practice

has been superimposed in adult classes for the last maybe 3-4 generations. Hence,

the frustration of the advanced practitioner who wants to know if he/she is learning

something valuable and/or wasting his/her life away in futility assuming that he/she is

practicing karate for real world self-defense.

Osu!

P.S: After the tournament phenomena came about, the kicking techniques such as

the spin kicks etc. became more in vogue. Tae Kwon Do took karate's basics and

added some of these flashier techniques in the 1940's to present. Tae Kwon Do is

not 100's of years old, like people like to think. More like 70 years old.
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:43 AM   #48
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edited for ease of reading - please do not use double interline and line breaks in the middle of your sentences.

Osu! Interesting thread.

Back in the old days, in pre-industrial Japan, the average karateka, primarily in Okinawa would have to learn maybe 3-5 kata in his whole style. Even this was considered "pushing" it as far has having too much kata. It was believed that one kata was a complete system in itself.

Aside from kata, Hojo Undo (Body hardening and physical conditioning) with weighted clubs, nigiri game, makiwara training and hanmidachi etc. were the norm to complement some of the specific Bunkai in the katas for real world fighting. This type of conditioning has been replaced by modern weightlifting etc.

However, I like a combination of the old school Okinawan conditioning with modern physical conditioning.

The point I am trying to make is, after Japan become an industry and guys like Shotokan master, Gichin Funakoshi created karate as a business model, the amount of katas one had to learn per style skyrocketed.
You couple that with the new tournament phenomena of the 1940's, kata was learned for belt testing and to win trophies at the tournament.

A lot of the dangerous moves were kept on the back burner so that children can learn karate at P.E class in a safe environment.

This practice has been superimposed in adult classes for the last maybe 3-4 generations. Hence, the frustration of the advanced practitioner who wants to know if he/she is learning something valuable and/or wasting his/her life away in futility assuming that he/she ispracticing karate for real world self-defense.

Osu!

P.S: After the tournament phenomena came about, the kicking techniques such as the spin kicks etc. became more in vogue. Tae Kwon Do took karate's basics and added some of these flashier techniques in the 1940's to present. Tae Kwon Do is not 100's of years old, like people like to think. More like 70 years old.[/quote]
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:45 PM   #49
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You are a human being - the most evolved specie of them all. This gives you the ability to look elsewhere if you are not happy with your training. MMA is very very popular these days but talks about it beign the best selfdefence isnt correct in anyway. Try going for an armbar while im trying to poke your eyes out... All this talk about needing to have a wrestling base etc well thats according to the UFC rules.. Look at pride you didnt see to much wrestlers and jiu jitsu guys having alot of success there but then again you where allowed to kick and knee people in the head if they where going to try and take you down.. I ll tell you this - allow soccer kicks and the number of takedowns in the UFC will split bye half in less then a year...
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Old 05-22-2012, 03:20 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyckan View Post
MMA is very very popular these days but talks about it beign the best selfdefence isnt correct in anyway. Try going for an armbar while im trying to poke your eyes out... All this talk about needing to have a wrestling base etc well thats according to the UFC rules.. Look at pride you didnt see to much wrestlers and jiu jitsu guys having alot of success there but then again you where allowed to kick and knee people in the head if they where going to try and take you down.. I ll tell you this - allow soccer kicks and the number of takedowns in the UFC will split bye half in less then a year...
Very good points in this post repped from me - When I first started Karate I remember this old hard nut telling me to stay on your feet as much as possible when fighting cos once your on the ground you are "£$%^& there is no way of escaping and they will put in the boot and everyone else will join in -
He had a stack of tricks to get back on your feet if it happened and also worked on taking someone else down with you when you were going to the ground to use them as a shield from multiple attackers




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Old 05-22-2012, 07:25 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olyckan View Post
You are a human being - the most evolved specie of them all. This gives you the ability to look elsewhere if you are not happy with your training. MMA is very very popular these days but talks about it beign the best selfdefence isnt correct in anyway. Try going for an armbar while im trying to poke your eyes out... All this talk about needing to have a wrestling base etc well thats according to the UFC rules.. Look at pride you didnt see to much wrestlers and jiu jitsu guys having alot of success there but then again you where allowed to kick and knee people in the head if they where going to try and take you down.. I ll tell you this - allow soccer kicks and the number of takedowns in the UFC will split bye half in less then a year...
I appreciate and agree with a lot of what you are saying but to me Evolution is the process of improvement, not dump and replacement - after being involved in something for 20+ years I am not looking to simply walk away but support the improvement of it. I am a great believer in the notion that the worst place to be is on your back - I never said I wanted to do mma but to look at our system and ensure we area teaching defensive tactics against the growing number who are.

This is no different to when I studied Jujitsu we would practice the same defence from the pov of the attacker being a layman, boxer or a karateka.
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:01 PM   #52
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I appreciate and agree with a lot of what you are saying but to me Evolution is the process of improvement, not dump and replacement - after being involved in something for 20+ years I am not looking to simply walk away but support the improvement of it. I am a great believer in the notion that the worst place to be is on your back - I never said I wanted to do mma but to look at our system and ensure we area teaching defensive tactics against the growing number who are.

This is no different to when I studied Jujitsu we would practice the same defence from the pov of the attacker being a layman, boxer or a karateka.
With this said im a big fan of sports mma. Whenever i have time to either train MMA muay thai or even grappling I take theh chance just because I love ever aspects of fighting. Lately though because of MMAs popularity - many are pointing out to be the "selfdefence". For me sélfdefence will always come to what you are prepared to do. If someone is putting a lock on me for real when then im gonna gauge his eyes hit his balls etc and voila the whole mma discussion goes out the window. OSU!
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Old 05-22-2012, 09:13 PM   #53
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Was watching an episode of Fight Quest and the most decorated Krav-Maga (a self defence system (attitude) I very much like) female instructor in the world, who is the total real deal, teaches the army in Israil etc. Watching one of the presenters trying to bring down one of her students only to get a pounding - "You go to the ground - you die!" Hard logic to argue with, and a sentament I am 100% behind but obv you say it in a dojo and it comes across as protectionisum.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:18 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmd View Post
"You go to the ground - you die!"
that may be true if you're an israeli solider. But if you're getting assaulted by a single guy, it doesn't change anything. In any case, if there's more than one attacker, or/and if they are armed, i think there's not much to do anyway. Maybe it's better to wait for the storm to end rather than upsetting them even more
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Old 05-23-2012, 05:07 AM   #55
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She trains the Israeli Army but this was self defence training not soldiering that was being taught or learned, for sure one on one you can go to the ground - for every scenario there is a counter scenario but the point of this thread is to eliminate those scenarios less likely to be faced and drill the ones that are more relevant for life and survival as it is today.
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Old 05-28-2012, 01:55 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by DrPhil View Post
that may be true if you're an israeli solider. But if you're getting assaulted by a single guy, it doesn't change anything. In any case, if there's more than one attacker, or/and if they are armed, i think there's not much to do anyway. Maybe it's better to wait for the storm to end rather than upsetting them even more
No offense, but if i am understanding your post correctly, that sounds like a very bad idea

If you are under attack, they are already angry. Laying there and hoping they get tired of kicking you seems much less likely to give you a chance to get away versus fighting back. Granted, at that point your chances are already low, but It seems better to do "something."

Or perhaps you meant to do your best to avoid starting a confrontation altogether? In that case I whole heartedly agree
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:07 PM   #57
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This is why I feel really blessed to train at an Enshin dojo which also teaches a little Muay Thai, the Enshin is essentially the same as Kyokushin fighting wise except they let you grab onto the opponent, often exchanging low kicks, knees, elbows and punches from this sort of hybrid clench position, not to mention of course the many throws! I learned very quickly during sparring in Enshin that Kyokushin while it extended my skill base incredibly, did not prepare me for the grabbing aspect of fighting. I learned that whether or not you like throwing (which I'm starting to reallly enjoy, even though I'm still terrible at it) it is very important to know how to avoid being thrown or taken down. Just learning to cut off momentum, counterbalance, and reverse these tricky situations is VERY important, although I had done tons of Kyokushin Kumite in my previous dojo I was totally unprepared for these grabbing exchanges and their throws, I probably got thrown to the ground around 10 times my first sparring day.

Since then I may not be great at throwing others yet, but I am MUCH better at keeping myself on two feet. On Friday night sparring class we switch at will between Enshin and Muay Thai sparring (without the elbows to the face, thank goodness!) This let's us feel the distance of face punching as well as full clenches. We only spar Muay Thai about 25% or less of the total sparring we do but it does fill a gap in the training. Even when training in the Muay Thai classes I nearly see it as a supplement to my Karate, by far my primary art. I just see it as practicing my Karate a bit differently and expanding its horizons a bit. I feel that the offshoots of Kyokushin which allow throwing and standing grappling really add a lot to ones skill base and benefit the practitioner, I certainty had no idea how easy it was to take me down before trying it out, that along with occasional face punching training really seems beneficial.

I love knockdown and believe it makes one a more well rounded fighter that does not rely on "head hunting" but nonetheless some face punching, even a small amount seems like it should be required. After all, didn't Kyokushin start off with grabs, throws and face punches aloud?? It seems like bringing these back would not be expanding the horizons and changing the art, as much as it would be coming back to its roots. Just my opinion, Osu!
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Old 05-28-2012, 05:49 PM   #58
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I agree with your post Lowlander. Keep up the good work! Repped!
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Old 05-28-2012, 06:14 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowlander View Post
This is why I feel really blessed to train at an Enshin dojo which also teaches a little Muay Thai, the Enshin is essentially the same as Kyokushin fighting wise except they let you grab onto the opponent, often exchanging low kicks, knees, elbows and punches from this sort of hybrid clench position, not to mention of course the many throws! I learned very quickly during sparring in Enshin that Kyokushin while it extended my skill base incredibly, did not prepare me for the grabbing aspect of fighting. I learned that whether or not you like throwing (which I'm starting to reallly enjoy, even though I'm still terrible at it) it is very important to know how to avoid being thrown or taken down. Just learning to cut off momentum, counterbalance, and reverse these tricky situations is VERY important, although I had done tons of Kyokushin Kumite in my previous dojo I was totally unprepared for these grabbing exchanges and their throws, I probably got thrown to the ground around 10 times my first sparring day.

Since then I may not be great at throwing others yet, but I am MUCH better at keeping myself on two feet. On Friday night sparring class we switch at will between Enshin and Muay Thai sparring (without the elbows to the face, thank goodness!) This let's us feel the distance of face punching as well as full clenches. We only spar Muay Thai about 25% or less of the total sparring we do but it does fill a gap in the training. Even when training in the Muay Thai classes I nearly see it as a supplement to my Karate, by far my primary art. I just see it as practicing my Karate a bit differently and expanding its horizons a bit. I feel that the offshoots of Kyokushin which allow throwing and standing grappling really add a lot to ones skill base and benefit the practitioner, I certainty had no idea how easy it was to take me down before trying it out, that along with occasional face punching training really seems beneficial.

I love knockdown and believe it makes one a more well rounded fighter that does not rely on "head hunting" but nonetheless some face punching, even a small amount seems like it should be required. After all, didn't Kyokushin start off with grabs, throws and face punches aloud?? It seems like bringing these back would not be expanding the horizons and changing the art, as much as it would be coming back to its roots. Just my opinion, Osu!
A very good post and echoing a lot of my own thoughts as of late .
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Old 05-28-2012, 07:25 PM   #60
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I echo the others Lowlander - great post! You are blessed to have found a dojo that incorporates so much variety in the training

Tried to rep you, but couldn't unfortunately...
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