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[FredInChina]

Osu,


Bear with me and chime in your thoughts, this is not a PhD thesis, but a receptacle for ideas:

Originally Posted by FredInChina

(...) Come to think of it: a tetrahedron is the basis of Sanchin, not a triangle...

A tetrahedron is the most stable structure in Universe.


Shoulders and scapula protracted?




Osu!

[meguro]

I have a deep suspicion about sanchin. It is like a lot of hope and promise have been heaped on a foundation of playing cards. Is it for training (isometrics, breathing)? Is it a defensive posture (knocked knees to prevent inner thigh kicks)? The ultimate stable platform? If so, for what?

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by meguro

I have a deep suspicion about sanchin (...)

What are you suspecting meguro?


Osu!

[meguro]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

What are you suspecting meguro?


Osu!

I suspect that all sorts of magical properties have been attributed to something rather ordinary, much like rhinoceros horn. There are fighting traditions that use a sanchindachi-ish stance, but only fleetingly, so as to trip an opponent. This is ok with me. For anything else, I want evidence for the claims.

Regarding the stability of the tetrahedron, is that on the molecular level? I thought a sphere is pretty stable- at least against compression. With gymnasts, what forces are they resisting? Gravity, sure, but what position are they in and how is this relevant to a fighter?

Sometimes stability is not what is desirable, especially where rapid movement and quick changes in direction are desired. This is pretty much the situation in a fight. Advanced fighter planes, for example, are inherently unstable. It is only through electronics that the things are controllable. Running, throwing, jumping, spinning, punching, kicking, all these things depend on managing instability, not eliminating it.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by meguro

(...) With gymnasts, what forces are they resisting? Gravity, sure, but what position are they in and how is this relevant to a fighter?

Sometimes stability is not what is desirable, especially where rapid movement and quick changes in direction are desired. This is pretty much the situation in a fight. Advanced fighter planes, for example, are inherently unstable. It is only through electronics that the things are controllable. Running, throwing, jumping, spinning, punching, kicking, all these things depend on managing instability, not eliminating it.

A handstand for instance.
Ahhh... there are static holds, and dynamic movements too. A gymnast can hold a planche on rings, or tumble on the floor... stable on unstable, to unstable on stable, and everything in between...
The key is precision of posture where a small "misalignment" of joints, or poor retraction of the scapula, pike at the hips, rounding of the lower back or thoracic spine changes the parameters either by reducing efficiency and strength, or by making the movement/hold easier thus reducing the benefits one hopes to obtain with practice.
This is also what Dent teaches.
This is what I think TaiChiChuan is about.

One advantage of gymnastics and static holds is that the codification of the movements is such that (1) they are reproducible, and (2) some are so difficult with disadvantaged leverage that there is no way to cheat your way into it with brute force, it does't work!
I see a lot of brute forcing in MA where I suspect that "the art" demands finesse and precision as well as strength and a proper muscle activation sequence.

TBH, I was drawing a parallel, I don't have the answers meguro.


Osu!

[meguro]

I'm a big fan of gymnastic training, as you know. Handstands, planche and lever progressions are pretty much routine. I do these things to build a better platform for fighting as well as for the simple challenge. Sanchin, for me, just gets me scratching my head about all the fuss. If there's more to it, I do want to know.

[Yokozuna]

Osu FredinChina and Meguro ! Interesting topic and one I have been wondering about for a year or so when I had and opportunity to train with my cousin who does Uechi Ryu. As you may know, Sanchin is one of stances their style is based upon (can I say their signature stance ?) To me it never looked practical in a fighting application but I was amazed at how ingrained it was to their style. It was only after watching "Samurai Spirit - Karate - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLibKL7OzDY" with host Nicholas Pettas that I started having a deeper appreciation for kata and the study of Uechi Ryu.

The episode doesn't go on to explain the biomechanics of Sanchin but it implies that through the virtue of focusing in on styles like Uechi Ryu that focus on kata (and thus Sanchin Kata) a greater understanding of karate can be had. Not sure if this helps but I thought I would share this episode for those of the community that haven't seen it.

[FredInChina]

Spheres, tetrahedrons or triangles?

I am directing you to Bucky Fuller's Synergetics; It starts at
608.30 Triangle as Minimum-altitude Tetrahedron
and continues there:
610.00 Triangulation
And the following pages too...

all the way to :
618.10 Tetrahedron: Beginning with the tetrahedron as the minimum system, it clearly will require proportionately greater force to create a "dent." In order to dimple, the tetrahedron will have to turn itself completely inside out with no localized effect in evidence. Thus the dimpling forces a complete change in the entire structure. The tetrahedron has the greatest resistance of any structure to externally applied concentrated load. It is the only system that can turn itself inside out. Other systems can have very large dimples, but they are still local. Even a hemispherical dimple is still a dimple and still local.

And following with:
620.00 Tetrahedron
621.00 Constant Properties of the Tetrahedron


Osu!

Originally Posted by meguro

(...) Sanchin, for me, just gets me scratching my head (...). If there's more to it, I do want to know.

hehehe... are we following parallel trajectories?


Osu!

[meguro]

Note to self, when Bucky Fuller is on Fred's side, no can defense.

Parallel trajectories? Yes I think we are both driven to ask questions.

I've seen that episode, Yokuzuna. I am deliberately stepping outside the box (karate) to get a better understanding of karate.

[Yokozuna]

Osu Meguro ! Good luck and look forward to reading more as the thread develops.

[Chakuriki]

OSU! all,

I think that in karate when one swims into to the deep water they drown.

I would first like to confirm the suspicison that Tai chi deals with the essential body alignments for fighting. I'm no tai chi expert, but I do find that the practice beneficial. I find tai-chi helpfull in a number of ways. First, to perform the 'form' slowly, and I might add with a lowered stance, requires a fair amount of leg muscle strength. I have found myself on occasions sore in the leg after a long session, or after not doing it for along time. Plus the practice does the following things. I find that I tune into my body mechanics. I find it a challenge as a meditation. I find it a challenge as a meditaion/breathing exercise. I find it an aid in teaching karate in as much as I can reference certain move and show the proper body mechanics and alignment done in tai cho and how i think it should be mirrored in karate. I don't find bunkai in it, though I admit I don't look for it there. I think there are simular parallels to be drawn with sanchin.


Sanchin Kata/stance I know there are books written on the subject. It still left me scratching my head.

Sanchin or three battles? Body mind and spirit?"....I am sure there are those who are versed in the bunkai of the kata and I find NO fault with that. But I'm gonna suggest that the kata may be no more then it purports to be, sanchin

OSU!

[SteveK]

I once had a guy espouse to me the esoterics of Sanshin, the number 3 and the number 9 and their prominence in the Kata, would have made for a great book - he almost had me convinced at one stage - in the end I like the stance, I like the kata if for nothing else except the physical workout it provides a lot like the old Charles Atlas dynamic tension stuff

Osu

[meguro]

When I was in Japan, a Goju instructor revealed a hidden pressure point attack in Sanchin no Kata. He was appalled when I half-jokingly mentioned I would use it in my next tournament.

[harukaze]

Originally Posted by SteveK

in the end I like the stance, I like the kata if for nothing else except the physical workout it provides a lot like the old Charles Atlas dynamic tension stuff

Osu

You hit the nail on the head right there, IMHO. Like many, I've always wondered about what exactly the benefits of sanchin are, so I posed the question to a few karateka who had the following qualifications: doctorate and professor of kinesiology, doctorate and professor of physical therapy, and doctorate and professor of physiology. All three independently praised sanchin for its dynamic tension and motor control training, in addition to the strengthening of the diaphragm, abdominals, and intercostals via ibuki.

[SteveK]

Originally Posted by harukaze

All three independently praised sanchin for its dynamic tension and motor control training, in addition to the strengthening of the diaphragm, abdominals, and intercostals via ibuki.

Reason enough to practice it everyday I should think

[harukaze]

Originally Posted by SteveK

Reason enough to practice it everyday I should think

Big to that!!!!!!!!!!

[49ers1970]

Osu!

I like Sanchin. It is a very good isometric workout. If done with the proper intensity,

it is a workout by itself. I have no concrete evidence to back it up, but I actually

feel the strengthening of my tendons and ligaments when rooted in Sanchin Stance.

I also visibly see muscle tone in my body that was not there previously.

Another heavy tension kata I learned from World Oyama karate is Shotei kata.

In this kata, one uses the same sanchin stance; the intial combination technique is

a shuto uke, hattou to the chin and downward hattou with the option of raking the

assailant's eye. The latter half of the kata involves breaking a hold, double upward

hattou to the chin and double horizontal hattou to the kidneys. The final move is

double kokken block/strike to break a hold, a double push with the edge of the hands

and double hattou to the kidneys once again.

All moves are done out of Sanchin stance. Once again, you do this kata correctly,

it is hell of a workout with some nasty bunkai inside the kata.

Being at work, I do not have access to youtube, but one can simply type up

Shotei kata on youtube and can observe this kata.

Osu!

to the chin

[BigAl]

Some of you might remember when I spent a lot of time focusing a lot on Sanchin. I still practice Sanchin daily to this day but not to the same depth that I did before. I felt I got an awful lot out of it as each and every time I would see something new to work on or to focus better on and I could slowly see the other aspects of my karate (e.g. kihon and kumite) improve in some small way. I think in some ways Sanchin is almost teaching you the proper movement and mechanics of karate technique in general.

[seienchin]

Glad you chimed in there Al, because I do remember those multiple reps of Sanchin that you stuck with through thick and thin.

What I think I am seeing in the thread is those who have done it a lot, say it is worth it. Those who haven't - seem to be questioning. Maybe the proof is in the doing.

[Oshishinobu]

Just thought I'd add to the conversation, my sempai was with the jundokan goju ryu or and was a sandan, he has worked with me on quite a few great exercises like sandan gi, and sanchin and tensho. He even has "tested" my tekki, having me p-practice it like sanchin with ibuki and tension, though the two kata are different tekki is like sanchin for shotokan and if you practice like sanchin you really feel the benefits. Just my two cents.