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[sandman]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Building a championship team takes time, patience, a plan, a target, leadership, tenacity against adversity and all odds...


Osu!

I was just having a little fun with that post Fred, nothing more.

On your point above, I totally agree. I think the raw talent could be found, but to sponsor a team that would rise to the upper echelons of world knockdown competition would take quite a commitment of time, money and effort, and the fact that the sport is so obscure here means there are no obvious rewards for achieving that goal.

If I choose to field that team, can I count on K4L sponsorship?

[sandman]

Originally Posted by yordan

Osu,
With full respect, I have to disagree with your views. I am 35 years old, wit a full time job, trying to start a business, a wife, 2 small kids, and all the responsibility that follows.

I was born in Bulgaria, and when I started training(about 10 years old) and until the age of 18(just before I joined the Bulgarian army) I trained every day. I was at 7pm in the dojo, and trained until 9pm. During that time I was successful in Kyokushin and became 4 times champion for Juniors in Bulgaria.

Now I live in the USA. Specifically in Brooklyn New York. There are plenty of dojos in the city, but to get to a kyokushin(or an off-shoot, call it as you wish) dojo would take me and hour or an hour and a half + the time to train + the time to get back to my family. Sooo, training in kyokushin in a structured dojo is an impossibility for me at this point. Therefore, I train on my own.

Now, Please solve my problem, and advise me how to use the US infrastructure properly, and use all the opportunities around me to
train in a structured dojo.
OSU

Originally Posted by Thunar

I really understand you worries.......NYC is a place far away from everything, you know...livind in this unknown city in the middle of nowhere really takes away from you every oportunity to be successful in kyokushin or any other thing at your life.............right...............quit complaining! As you said you are 35 , you have full time job, you are starting a new business, you have a wife and 2 samll kids.............you don`t need to be a world class fighter, you have to be happy with what you got and train when you are able too......if you tell me that NYC has less infrastructure than the place you came from in Bulgaria I`ll just at you because I`m sure you are joking......
What i meant is that some people do now have proper food and train hard and overcome all the obstacles......and those become champions......I`m sure you have tons of examples of that in you homeland Bulgaria, as I do have here in Brazil.....
Osu!

Thunar, you are missing the point. Yordan is not complaining about life being too hard. He is simply saying that it is not easy to find Kyokushin training. If the training is not available, there are no champions produced. There are plenty of guys with strong burning desire, but if there is no knockdown dojo, then they just don't choose knockdown - they choose boxing or MMA or whatever it is that's available. That's the point.

Maybe the word "infrastructure" is confusing in this case. When we are saying infrastructure we aren't talking about buses and grocery stores and jobs and internet access - here we are talking about knockdown karate dojo and tourneys and great coaches. That's all.

Osu!

[bobh]

There's an awful lot of talk coming from people that don't even live in the US nor have ever lived in the US. It's armchair sociology. And it's annoying to me.

Actually have been born here, living here, and raising 4 children here, I can tell you that there is indeed lots of merit in some of these suggestions.

The pull of mainstream sports is truly incredible. You must witness the lengths to which parents try and groom their kids to play *high school* level sport from the time they are 5. You'd think it was a pro career or a shot at the Olympics. It's madness... if you'd trust me that far.

I don't think it's such a stretch to say that people currently participating in college football (let alone pro) would naturally make good knockdown fighters. Would they all? Of course not. All kyokushin karate students don't even fit that bill.

I'm not even sure it's about money... but it's some sort of fame or stature. I'll go out on a limb an act as an armchair commentator on Japan. Kyokushin karate fighters can achieve near rock-star status, can they not? The top fighter here in amateur MA wouldn't get so much as a nod except amongst the small group of participants (note: not fans). There are (statistically) *zero* knockdown fans here. At least the number is negligible at best. You can't say the same for Japan. There is societal appreciation for the karate competitors.

In the US, there is definitely similar societal kudos given to young sport stars -- even the local little league kids. It's a spot in the pecking order.

All that said, I don't think it answers the question either. I'll say meguro's answer makes sense to me.

No matter what, you can always follow the money. Even if fighters are not paid a dime, take a look at the orgs. If the leaders are millionaires, I think that says something. What? I'm not sure... it could be that there's money in the game or that the game brings money. Who knows.

What are the percentages of UFC champions per country of origin. How about Western Boxing? If the breakdown is different than it is for knockdown, then the answer for knockdown has little to do with the talent pool.

[bobh]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

[...]
The market is also not interested in gymnastics, [...]

I think you are mistaken. You might want to talk to the people who put gymnastics on TV over other sports. You might chat with the people who decide who goes on the box of Wheaties. We might also be interested to talk to the manufacturers of girls gymnastic leotards and see what they sell in the US. Not interested in gymnastics? The market here is BIG. Next thing you will say there is no market for ice skating.

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by bobh

Next thing you will say there is no market for ice skating.

Had to jump in here .... with no natural ice, Winter Sports is a rarity. Our closest call to ice skating is the few centres for those and in the Cape we only have one ... and cost wise it is not somewhere you go regularly for outings ...

[bobh]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

Had to jump in here .... with no natural ice, Winter Sports is a rarity. Our closest call to ice skating is the few centres for those and in the Cape we only have one ... and cost wise it is not somewhere you go regularly for outings ...

Yes, I'd imagine..... :-)

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by bobh

Yes, I'd imagine..... :-)

but hey, we had one guy that went to the last Winter Olympics ... Not having ice or snow was no excuse ... simple determination and making a plan with sand dunes and so on, paved the way!

[yordan]

Originally Posted by Thunar

I really understand you worries.......NYC is a place far away from everything, you know...livind in this unknown city in the middle of nowhere really takes away from you every oportunity to be successful in kyokushin or any other thing at your life.............right...............quit complaining! As you said you are 35 , you have full time job, you are starting a new business, you have a wife and 2 samll kids.............you don`t need to be a world class fighter, you have to be happy with what you got and train when you are able too......if you tell me that NYC has less infrastructure than the place you came from in Bulgaria I`ll just at you because I`m sure you are joking......
What i meant is that some people do now have proper food and train hard and overcome all the obstacles......and those become champions......I`m sure you have tons of examples of that in you homeland Bulgaria, as I do have here in Brazil.....
Osu!

Osu.

I will cut to the chase as I don't think that we will ever get to a consensus.

First of all... I don't complain(at all), but rather I express my views.

Second of all, your attempt of being sarcastic or funny(silly) read it as you wish, is a failure.

Off topic(as you started the silly "who is poorer" convo):

Poverty is all around us. There are plenty of poor people in the USA, Brasil or any other country you think of. Being poor doesn't make you a champion.

By the way, there are no world class malnourished knock down fighters... regardless where are they from!
Ask yourself why there is no hungry kyokushin champion?
Regardless where they come from, all the GOOD fighters are well fed, and well taken care of.

The topic of this thread is "United states fighters in major tournament" if you forgot.

My theory is simple. Please answer the questions below, and hopefully plenty will become apparent.

1. How many people train Kyokushin in the(kyokushin) dominating countries?

1A) Japan?
1B) Brasil?
1C) Russia?

on the other hand....

how many people train kyokushin in the US?

2. How much money is being put towards the development of kyokushin in?

1A) Japan?
1B) Brasil?
1C) Russia?

on the other hand....

in the US?

3. (really simple one) If I had the money(and the will) to live in Manhattan,(and I were the regular American person for whom kyokushin sounds like a Japanese curse word), would I pay for a (personal) trainer for my kids in:

3A) Kyokushin
3B) Tennis
3C) Swimming

I hope you are truthful in question 3.

OSU

[yordan]

Originally Posted by bobh

There's an awful lot of talk coming from people that don't even live in the US nor have ever lived in the US. It's armchair sociology. And it's annoying to me.

Actually have been born here, living here, and raising 4 children here, I can tell you that there is indeed lots of merit in some of these suggestions.

The pull of mainstream sports is truly incredible. You must witness the lengths to which parents try and groom their kids to play *high school* level sport from the time they are 5. You'd think it was a pro career or a shot at the Olympics. It's madness... if you'd trust me that far.

I don't think it's such a stretch to say that people currently participating in college football (let alone pro) would naturally make good knockdown fighters. Would they all? Of course not. All kyokushin karate students don't even fit that bill.

I'm not even sure it's about money... but it's some sort of fame or stature. I'll go out on a limb an act as an armchair commentator on Japan. Kyokushin karate fighters can achieve near rock-star status, can they not? The top fighter here in amateur MA wouldn't get so much as a nod except amongst the small group of participants (note: not fans). There are (statistically) *zero* knockdown fans here. At least the number is negligible at best. You can't say the same for Japan. There is societal appreciation for the karate competitors.

In the US, there is definitely similar societal kudos given to young sport stars -- even the local little league kids. It's a spot in the pecking order.

All that said, I don't think it answers the question either. I'll say meguro's answer makes sense to me.

No matter what, you can always follow the money. Even if fighters are not paid a dime, take a look at the orgs. If the leaders are millionaires, I think that says something. What? I'm not sure... it could be that there's money in the game or that the game brings money. Who knows.

What are the percentages of UFC champions per country of origin. How about Western Boxing? If the breakdown is different than it is for knockdown, then the answer for knockdown has little to do with the talent pool.

OSU

I agree with all you have said here.

OSU

[Thunar]

Originally Posted by yordan

Osu.

I will cut to the chase as I don't think that we will ever get to a consensus.

First of all... I don't complain(at all), but rather I express my views.

Second of all, your attempt of being sarcastic or funny(silly) read it as you wish, is a failure.

Off topic(as you started the silly "who is poorer" convo):

Poverty is all around us. There are plenty of poor people in the USA, Brasil or any other country you think of. Being poor doesn't make you a champion.

By the way, there are no world class malnourished knock down fighters... regardless where are they from!
Ask yourself why there is no hungry kyokushin champion?
Regardless where they come from, all the GOOD fighters are well fed, and well taken care of.

The topic of this thread is "United states fighters in major tournament" if you forgot.

My theory is simple. Please answer the questions below, and hopefully plenty will become apparent.

1. How many people train Kyokushin in the(kyokushin) dominating countries?

1A) Japan?
1B) Brasil?
1C) Russia?

on the other hand....

how many people train kyokushin in the US?

2. How much money is being put towards the development of kyokushin in?

1A) Japan?
1B) Brasil?
1C) Russia?

on the other hand....

in the US?

3. (really simple one) If I had the money(and the will) to live in Manhattan,(and I were the regular American person for whom kyokushin sounds like a Japanese curse word), would I pay for a (personal) trainer for my kids in:

3A) Kyokushin
3B) Tennis
3C) Swimming

I hope you are truthful in question 3.

OSU

I talk just about the statistics i could get real quick ok...

taking IKO1 as an example question 1: Japan 600.000 people, Brazil: 5.000, world: 12 million people

question 2: Brazil..............none....no money for kyokushin, all the efforts come from us...we pay for everything...........there is a guy for example that train in the same dojo that I do, he has some kind of scholarship.......sensei helps to pay his school (no decent public schools here), he lives in a favela, he trains for free , i gave him a dogi last month because he does not have money to buy that...........sensei does that because he is very talented, dedicated and he was about to quit school to start to work full time to help his family to survive........(this is not pretty, this is sad.)..he is an excelent fighter and if he endures he sure will be a world class fighter in 4 or 5 years, he is just 15 years old now.

questio 3: I trust that those who deserve to live in manhatan because of their hard work would not judge a sport based in cultural prejudice ..............japanese curse word.............i would never treat a sport, martial art, cultural activitie or somebody passion on those terms.....you do not know anything about something you kid want to do......google it......participate more, go search somewhere about it.........that is what my dad did when i first got interested in tae kwon do.......when I was about 8 years old and he took me to my first dojang.

Well i think you are a little bit too angry.........you are in the land of oportunities, you are in place that I particuly love that has a lot to offer and I am sure gave you a lot in your personal and professional life........I just said that at 35 with all those priorities in your life training everyday to be a world class fighter is just not possible and actually would be a little bit silly.....and one thing I did not say and i would like to tell you....i am sure that your achievements in kyokushin back in Bulgaria were exclusively your merity..just like the achivements of any kyokushin fighter from brazil, bulgaria, russia and other coutries that do not have a good infrastructure are their merit and not the result of some exogenous investment..........
I am not in a who is poorer competition........just saying that the will to overcome obstacles is a good characteristic for champion on every sport or life activitie......no ofense.....

Osu........

[yordan]

Originally Posted by Thunar

I talk just about the statistics i could get real quick ok...

taking IKO1 as an example question 1: Japan 600.000 people, Brazil: 5.000, world: 12 million people

question 2: Brazil..............none....no money for kyokushin, all the efforts come from us...we pay for everything...........there is a guy for example that train in the same dojo that I do, he has some kind of scholarship.......sensei helps to pay his school (no decent public schools here), he lives in a favela, he trains for free , i gave him a dogi last month because he does not have money to buy that...........sensei does that because he is very talented, dedicated and he was about to quit school to start to work full time to help his family to survive........(this is not pretty, this is sad.)..he is an excelent fighter and if he endures he sure will be a world class fighter in 4 or 5 years, he is just 15 years old now.

questio 3: I trust that those who deserve to live in manhatan because of their hard work would not judge a sport based in cultural prejudice ..............japanese curse word.............i would never treat a sport, martial art, cultural activitie or somebody passion on those terms.....you do not know anything about something you kid want to do......google it......participate more, go search somewhere about it.........that is what my dad did when i first got interested in tae kwon do.......when I was about 8 years old and he took me to my first dojang.

Well i think you are a little bit too angry.........you are in the land of oportunities, you are in place that I particuly love that has a lot to offer and I am sure gave you a lot in your personal and professional life........I just said that at 35 with all those priorities in your life training everyday to be a world class fighter is just not possible and actually would be a little bit silly.....and one thing I did not say and i would like to tell you....i am sure that your achievements in kyokushin back in Bulgaria were exclusively your merity..just like the achivements of any kyokushin fighter from brazil, bulgaria, russia and other coutries that do not have a good infrastructure are their merit and not the result of some exogenous investment..........
I am not in a who is poorer competition........just saying that the will to overcome obstacles is a good characteristic for champion on every sport or life activitie......no ofense.....

Osu........

Well... As I thought initially my effort to give you another perspective is useless, as you are way too hard headed and you have rather arrogant "I know it all attitude" at least in this thread.
You have insulted me at least in two instances in this thread, and I have had enough of getting it slide.
I may or may not be angry, and frankly I don't know how did you get to that conclusion, but at the end of the day that is non of your business.
Giving me knee-jerk examples about hungry poor kids who will become world class fighters within 5 years is also off topic as it is a total speculation.

SO... how about you answer all the questions above, and NOT only the ones that suit you better.

And by the way the story about IKO1 having 12,000,000(please count the zeros) members world wide is a total fabrication, circulating since the days when Sosai was alive.

Osu

[sandman]

Everybody - please remember to debate the topic, not each other. This thread will be closed if we can't keep it on topic.

[Thunar]

Originally Posted by yordan

Well... As I thought initially my effort to give you another perspective is useless, as you are way too hard headed and you have rather arrogant "I know it all attitude" at least in this thread.
You have insulted me at least in two instances in this thread, and I have had enough of getting it slide.
I may or may not be angry, and frankly I don't know how did you get to that conclusion, but at the end of the day that is non of your business.
Giving me knee-jerk examples about hungry poor kids who will become world class fighters within 5 years is also off topic as it is a total speculation.

SO... how about you answer all the questions above, and NOT only the ones that suit you better.

And by the way the story about IKO1 having 12,000,000(please count the zeros) members world wide is a total fabrication, circulating since the days when Sosai was alive.

Osu

I`m over with that discution. I`m not going to say anything else regardless what you asnwer me.
Just 2 things....No I did not put info that suits me......because I`m not trying that hard to find info and the 12 million kyokushin fighters....well I got it from the IKO1 website at this link......http://www.kyokushinkaikan.org/en/ab...anization.html


I do not want to get personal.

And about ofending you........well I told you as compliment that you achieves in kyokushin back in Bulgary were your merit.........sorry if you did not understand that. Abou you being 35, full time job....not being able to train as much as you want, and having a wife and 2 kids...I`m in the exacly same situation...I have one wife, one litle kid, one full time job and I`m helping my family to start a business........so I`m not offending you...I understand your situation.........

Have a nice weekend, Osu!

[Yokozuna]

Osu ! Still a very interesting thread with many good commentaries (Bobh - I especially liked what you had to say. As a father of 4 as well, I can relate to many of your experiences.)

Still, the question is in dispute and I have been trying to find a video that was produced about this very similar topic but it analyzed and detailed the success of the Australian Olympic organizations in their bid to win gold medals (the question was - Why is Australia more successful than Canada at winning gold medals as the two roughly share the same history, culture, population size and wealth.) The theory of the documentary was that the Australian Olympic Committee selectively chose which sports to "support" (read give money to) and that support has translated into more gold medals for Australia (ie: Swimming).

I think many here have been saying very similar things. Perhaps, not all the answers are as complete as they can be but it is hard to refute that without proper support in your chosen endeavour, the likelihood of world class success is greatly diminished.

[Deaken]

Originally Posted by Thunar

I really understand you worries.......NYC is a place far away from everything, you know...livind in this unknown city in the middle of nowhere really takes away from you every oportunity to be successful in kyokushin or any other thing at your life.............right...............quit complaining! As you said you are 35 , you have full time job, you are starting a new business, you have a wife and 2 samll kids.............you don`t need to be a world class fighter, you have to be happy with what you got and train when you are able too......if you tell me that NYC has less infrastructure than the place you came from in Bulgaria I`ll just at you because I`m sure you are joking......
What i meant is that some people do now have proper food and train hard and overcome all the obstacles......and those become champions......I`m sure you have tons of examples of that in you homeland Bulgaria, as I do have here in Brazil.....
Osu!

I have to step in on this as a past Bulgarian and European champion lives in Toronto for some time and is part of my dojo. He was sponsored in Bulgaria by the national organization which allowed him the time and support to rise to his level. He did not compete here exactly because of this. lack of support for his efforts and needing to focus on eating and paying the rent. At that time Zahari was a young boy working with him and he was the champion. Looking at the results, having national or other sort of support for your program definalty makes a difference and produces results.

Yourdan would like to compete and is willing to make the efforts, but has his home/family to consider. It would be good to find ways to allow people within North America that are in his position to do so.

[Deaken]

[quote=bobh;258334]

The pull of mainstream sports is truly incredible. You must witness the lengths to which parents try and groom their kids to play *high school* level sport from the time they are 5. You'd think it was a pro career or a shot at the Olympics. It's madness... if you'd trust me that far.

In the US, there is definitely similar societal kudos given to young sport stars -- even the local little league kids. It's a spot in the pecking order.
[quote]

I would have to agree with this. My son playes competative hockey and at 8 years old there were already scouts out last season trying to recruit the best players for the AAA and AA teams for this fall. He also competes in Kyokushin, and has since he was 5. If he had to choose between the two I am sure he would choose hockey. It's just his luck that dad has a dojo downstairs so we can accomodate both but many parents have to choose between sports and activities and the popular ones win out most of the time.

[Shokei Marcsui]

I am currently listening to/reading the Talent Code and it is sort of in the same vein of Outliers. Examining talent hot beds and why the seem to spring out of nowhere.

The idea of ignition plays a role in the explosion of a talent source. They used examples of the first mile runner breaking the 4:00 minute mile record. Months after many runners began to break that 4:00 minute mile which was previously though out of reach.

In relation to the thread, perhaps the reason why the US has not given birth to a World Tournament champion is due to lack of ignition. Francisco Filho was the first non-japanese to win the Kyokushin world tournament correct? What are the odds that the same national Kyokushin karateka, from the same dojo produces the next non-japanese Kyokushin World Tournament champion? Ignition. Think of the group coming from Brazil and their impact on the world tournaments after Shihan Filho.

[Thunar]

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

I am currently listening to/reading the Talent Code and it is sort of in the same vein of Outliers. Examining talent hot beds and why the seem to spring out of nowhere.

The idea of ignition plays a role in the explosion of a talent source. They used examples of the first mile runner breaking the 4:00 minute mile record. Months after many runners began to break that 4:00 minute mile which was previously though out of reach.

In relation to the thread, perhaps the reason why the US has not given birth to a World Tournament champion is due to lack of ignition. Francisco Filho was the first non-japanese to win the Kyokushin world tournament correct? What are the odds that the same national Kyokushin karateka, from the same dojo produces the next non-japanese Kyokushin World Tournament champion? Ignition. Think of the group coming from Brazil and their impact on the world tournaments after Shihan Filho.

Ignition is something that cama after years and years of extreme hard work and dificulties.....before filho was a champion he was a little kid trainned by Ademir da Costa, and before him Shihan Isobe trainned Da Costa for years without the proper finantial compensation....without government incentive, with many students quitting looking for a more belt oriented and soft style like shotokan......and many other obstacles......
And even after Filho won the world championship.......do you know how many newspaper or tv channels told his story to the world???.........0........the general public does not even know what kyokushin is.....
That is why I keep saying that the success of brazilian kyokushin is only because of the commitment and hard work of our fighters and the discipline from Shihan Isobe. He could be rich by now teaching watered down kyokushin for millions and oppening dojos like a fast food chain, but he was honest with himself and his art and let kyokushin grow slowly but with a lot of quality.

Osu

[Shokei Marcsui]

Thunar thank you for the clarification on the brazilian history of Kyokushin. I must admit that I am unfamiliar with the details and a majority of the examples in the book The Talent Code used South American success in sports throughout the book. Brazilian soccer success was attributed to foot sal in terms of deep training and their global success.

In terms of Brazilian Kyokushin a non-japanese fighter winning the tournament was a long shot. It wasn't until Shihan Filho won the world tournament that you had a repeat performance again by another Brazilian. That was my point, once a record that was subliminally told to the participants was hard to attain is achieved it ignites a spark in others around him to do the same.

Obviously success and brilliance is not our own and we stand atop the shoulders of others, but it is to the people that break through that glass ceiling that make room for more at the top.

[sandman]

That makes sense Shokei - of course it took a tremendous amount of hard work and dedication for Filho to get where he did. I can imagine that his achievement attracted a lot of new talent to his dojo, who were in turn inspired to try to replicate his achievement. He likely created some momentum.