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[Dobbersky]

All

Would like to know what you would deem as the "correct" Levels for Kumite for Gradings, should I amend them reduce them increase them etc?

At present I have
Kyu Grades
9th Kyu - 1 min Shadow Sparring
8th Kyu - 2 min Shadow Sparring
7th Kyu - 3 min Shadow Sparring
6th Kyu - 4 min Shadow Sparring
5th Kyu - 3 x 1 min Fights
4th Kyu - 5 x 1 min Fights
3rd Kyu - 5 x 2 min Fights
2nd Kyu - 5 x 3 min Fights
1st Kyu - 8 x 3 min Fights


Dan Grades
1st Dan - 10 x 3 min Fights
2nd Dan - 12 x 3 min Fights
3rd Dan - 14 x 3 min Fights

[sandman]

I think it all depends on what you want from the gradings Dobbersky Where does kumite fit in the overall scheme in your dojo? (that's a rhetorical question - you don't need to answer it here). I'm not sure anyone here is more qualified than you to determine if your kumite setup is sufficient for delivering the results you want

[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

And those levels/requirements vary - in Seido Juku for example, they only start kumite at green belt level. In our dojo for example, we start partner work right from the beginning with Sabaki Kumite and often we do soft sparring (randori) with beginners.

And most often even though the requirements say x-amount of fights, we do more.

[kanku]

My boys club had over a hundered children fighting in a clicker tournament 10th kyu upwards.

They are also considering letting a couple of whitebelts who are showing promise fight in the novice section at the Scottish open. So it is really what each individual dojo wants to do.

By the way, if you haven`t fought knockdown in public, you can fight in the novice section, if you want to?

Our club had a brownbelt beaten by a 4th dan in the BKK regionals, so grade isn`t an issue.

[Deaken]

I would tend to agree with the advice above. It really should be what you think works best to challange your students in your curriculum. We do more fights, but thats set by the organization based on our syllabus. Comparing ours to yours is like apples to oranges, so do what you feel works best based on how and what you are teaching.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by Deaken

(...) Comparing ours to yours is like apples to oranges (...)

Why do you think that Deaken?


Osu!

[Chakuriki]

I would chime in on the more fighting the better. If for 9th kyu instead of 'shadow boxing' have them do a 50% effort fight....Just my opinion though I equally agree you should know the best.

An advantage of having the beginners spar is that it is good expirience for the seniors. O.K. before people think I've lost my mind let me explain why I say that. Someone who has been taught a system may have a few tricks but for the most part the seniors have taught them the tricks and can anticapate what they might do. I beginner is unpredictable and therefore good practice for a senior student. I am alway more alert whenever I fight a beginner for the first time, even if they know the rules they may in the thick of a sparring round revert to something bad like a groin kick or face punch.

OSU!

[kanku]

Originally Posted by Chakuriki

I would chime in on the more fighting the better. If for 9th kyu instead of 'shadow boxing' have them do a 50% effort fight....Just my opinion though I equally agree you should know the best.

An advantage of having the beginners spar is that it is good expirience for the seniors. O.K. before people think I've lost my mind let me explain why I say that. Someone who has been taught a system may have a few tricks but for the most part the seniors have taught them the tricks and can anticapate what they might do. I beginner is unpredictable and therefore good practice for a senior student. I am alway more alert whenever I fight a beginner for the first time, even if they know the rules they may in the thick of a sparring round revert to something bad like a groin kick or face punch.

OSU!

Osu Chakuriki!

Your not far wrong about the unpredictability, i was going through the motions with a big strong white belt whom i knew was a handfull on the street..he grabbed me around the waist and threw me over his head like a body slam onto a wooden floor, fortunately i landed flat on my back and didn`t hurt myself but the rest of the class did though.... laughing!! and Jeff Wybrow sort of made out he didn`t see anything and carried on with the class!....And i weighed nearly 17stone at the time!

But the guy did give me a lift home afterwards!

Aaahhh the good old days!

[SashaS]

I'll share what I observe at Kanreikai gradings - not as the right way to go, but simply as an option.

After joining Kanreikai about 15 months ago, I was surprised that there's sparring for everyone at the gradings, even for those who grade for the very first time. But I think it's a good practice. Typically the fights are soft-ish, not 100% power, more geared toward technique, speed and endurance. That changes as one progresses to the higher kyus, of course.
The general idea is that the number of rounds grows gradually from 1 to 10 as one progresses from 10th to 1st kyu. Then Shodan is 15 rounds. But that's more of a guideline, Hanshi usually adds/reduces the numbers of rounds depending on each student's personal abilities, so that the effort is more or less complete during the test.

[wullie]

we get folk sparring as soon as possible at my Kickboxing BUT the newbies only spar with the high grades ie the folks that can take it and can control it, brings everyone on and gets them to an effective level quicker

[Deaken]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Why do you think that Deaken?


Osu!

The issue is without me knowing what Dobbersky's syllabus is and what he's teaching, how can I comment or compare to what I do? I know what I teach but how is that relevent to his needs?

Our Kumite requirements at gradings are as follows if this info helps:

10th Kyu 2 fights
9th 2 or 3 depending on the student
8th 3 fights
7th kyu 4 fights
6th kyu 5 fights
5th kyu 6 fights
4th kyu 7 fights
3rd kyu 8 figths
2nd kyu 10 fights
1st kyu 12 fights
Shodan 15 fights
Nidan 20 fights
Sandan 30 fights
Yondan 40 fights

The level of contact progresses as the kyu level does. At 3rd Kyu padding is no longer permitted

For Shodan you only fight 2nd kyu and higher opponents
For Nidan and above only Yudansha are permitted to attend and be opponents.

The purpose of the kumite is to bring the student just over the brink of what they think their maximum capabilities and capacity for endurance are. Push them beyond what they think they can do, but not break them. The sense of self learning and accomplishment of the grading then really hits home.

[Dobbersky]

Excellent responses, Just to add, my syllabus is predominately Ashihara Karate in its core.

I see an array of comparisons, but for those who've specified rounds or fights, HOW long are the individual rounds or fights are the for example for Sandan, Deaken specified 30 fights are these 30 x 3 mins totalling 90 mins of fighting or is it 30 x 1.5 mins etc?

Thank you all

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Deaken

The purpose of the kumite is to bring the student just over the brink of what they think their maximum capabilities and capacity for endurance are. Push them beyond what they think they can do, but not break them. The sense of self learning and accomplishment of the grading then really hits home.

This is where in many dojo, they fail - many think it is to simply just beat up the examinee. I concur fully with what you wrote here.

[Dobbersky]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

This is where in many dojo, they fail - many think it is to simply just beat up the examinee. I concur fully with what you wrote here.

Totally agree with this hence why I originally asked the question I want to test the students not beat them up.

So I will reiterate my first question;

Should I increase or decrease the number of fights, should I decrease the Times of each round/fights and increase the amount of fights ie

10 x 3 min fights = 30 x 1 min fights = 30 mins
Etc

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Dobbersky

So I will reiterate my first question;
Should I increase or decrease the number of fights, should I decrease the Times of each round/fights and increase the amount of fights ie
10 x 3 min fights = 30 x 1 min fights = 30 mins
Etc

In our syllabus, we just state the number of fights, the time depends on my mood - our gradings.promotions normally happen at gasshuku's and often the fights go on for longer as the whole idea of the gasshuku is to push them to their limits. So anything from 1 1/2 minute and longer.

It helps when you do not specify time as mentally they could "break" if they think you not adhering to it. On the camp, everyone fights until we let them sit out, so their mindset is geared towards fighting and not how many times o for how long.

[Deaken]

Originally Posted by Dobbersky

Excellent responses, Just to add, my syllabus is predominately Ashihara Karate in its core.

I see an array of comparisons, but for those who've specified rounds or fights, HOW long are the individual rounds or fights are the for example for Sandan, Deaken specified 30 fights are these 30 x 3 mins totalling 90 mins of fighting or is it 30 x 1.5 mins etc?

Thank you all

All of our fights are 1 minute until shodan and then 1.5 minutes. Each with fresh opponent and limited time to bow in and out, so no real break.

I find that this is more than enought for the chalange but others may have different opinions.

[Deaken]

Originally Posted by Dobbersky

Totally agree with this hence why I originally asked the question I want to test the students not beat them up.

So I will reiterate my first question;

Should I increase or decrease the number of fights, should I decrease the Times of each round/fights and increase the amount of fights ie

10 x 3 min fights = 30 x 1 min fights = 30 mins
Etc

So what will be different is the challenge. With shorter fights the student will always be fighting someone fresh, not tired. This ups the challange which gets mitigated I guess by the shorter round. It all depends on what you want to challange them with. I like the short round/more opponent route where you are pushed to "up" your game each time, overcome the exhaustion, when the new opponent apears but otheres may prefer the longer rounds for different purposes.

I definatley think at the higher levels that the rounds if at all possible should not be against junior belts. Peers or higher only so that the challange is real.

[slaine]

Originally Posted by Deaken

So what will be different is the challenge. With shorter fights the student will always be fighting someone fresh, not tired. This ups the challange which gets mitigated I guess by the shorter round. It all depends on what you want to challange them with. I like the short round/more opponent route where you are pushed to "up" your game each time, overcome the exhaustion, when the new opponent apears but otheres may prefer the longer rounds for different purposes.

I definatley think at the higher levels that the rounds if at all possible should not be against junior belts. Peers or higher only so that the challange is real.

Very true Deaken , short rounds and new opponents all the time ( if possible ) is the way I think it should be to keep the test as a constant challenge not a slug fest .

[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

Sparring too much too soon. Sparring is one of the biggest areas of fear and concern for the beginner. But as much as I love to spar and value it as a big requirement for black belt, it has nothing to do with inspiring beginner students. Our students mostly don’t free-spar until they have been thoroughly exposed to sabaki kumite (a type of one-step sparring). As white belts, they do block and counter drills with partners and we also add kicking and punching drills of striking pads.

After a few months of being exposed to partner drills and kata application they can spar with light body contact. It’s not until after 6 months of training that they are permitted to spar with more contact. The result is higher retention, fewer injuries and a system that progresses in its challenge as the student’s confidence, skill and conditioning increase to meet the demands. As always, the longer term your perspective in dealing with students the better. Implement this gradual sparring process and you will see your students ranks increase dramatically.

[TriCityOsu]

Osu...My shodan test consisted of 10 fights and 2 boxin gloved fights with face punches allowed. It was group testing and we were told not to kill each other. I wanted more. My opponents mostly young adults college kids. Soft, timed short 30 sec matches I believe. Maybe minute, nonetheless it stunk cuz you could fight based off the time, I got bored. Ni dan guy got 24 fights, he nearly died. That's what I wanted. Osu.

just my two cents. IMO that's not good test sparring.