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[49ers1970]

Osu! Fred,

Interesting point you made on Mas Oyama vs. Morio Higaonna. With Mas

Oyama, I do not know much about his street background. I know he was

tied in with the yakuza to either a greater or lesser degree. His over 200

challenge matches in the U.S where he went undefeated were most likely his

pro wrestling matches. (He got into pro wrestling through wrestler,

Rikidozan.).

I know that Mas Oyama did get into a bar fight and killed a man with

a punch to the head. It is not known to my knowledge whether the victim

was already killed before hitting the ground or whether the impact of hitting

the ground caused that man's death.

Another interesting article, a rare candid article (I forgot the website),

Mas Oyama openly admits getting beaten up by 7 African American men in

an altercation in Chicago. However, there is very few people in the world

if any who can take out 7 determined men in a street altercation. Therefore,

in my eyes, this does not take away any credibility from Mas Oyama.

Mas Oyama would have had to have been a very strong individual both

physically and mentally to successfully introduce Karate in Japan during a

time when the hatred between the Koreans and Japanese were at an all time

high.

Morio Higaonna on the other hand, I do not know much about. I know

he grew up in Okinawa. I have not heard any stories of his tournament

fighting career. (I believe aside from his annual Iri Kumi Go event, he does

not care much for too much kumite competition).

I have also seen videos of Morio doing hand conditioning training. I

have also seen him spar and his sparring partners seem to get hurt when

either they attack Morio or defend against his attacks. I have heard through

a couple of high ranking karate instructors that Morio has been esteemed

locally as a very good fighter whether in training or on the street and that

Morio was not in position to where he needed to prove himself. It was just

fact.

Finally another interesting drill Morio does is he has a heavy duty cloth

suspending from the ceiling on a string with two hole in it. He randomly walks

by the cloth and performs eagle claw strike very accurately through the holes

without moving the cloth. That is scary.

It would be a very tough streetfight between Morio and Mas Oyama.

However, I guess your opinion from Morio winning most of the time stems

from the fact that Morio focuses more on bunkai waza and hojo undo for

the street while Mas Oyama does the above, but to a lesser extent and

focuses more on tournament knockdown kumite training, correct?

As far as Bruce Lee is concerned, he as a teenager did win a Chinese

Golden Gloves boxing tournament against the defending champion. He never

competed in any martial arts tournament that I know of. He was apparently

involved in a gang as a youth and did get into some fights.

Allegedly behind closed doors in his Kung Fu studios he did get into

some challenge matches against other Kung Fu masters. However, this info.

is a bit sketchy via the esoterical content of the 70's martial arts magazines.

I have heard from other sources of Bruce Lee getting beaten soundly

in either training sessions or challenge matches vs. Judo Gene Lebell,

Kyokushin fighter, Frank Clark and Kung Fu master, Leo Fong.

In conclusion, the myths vs. facts of Bruce Lee lie somewhere in

the middle. He was an actor, first and foremost. He was very disciplined

with his martial arts training and physical conditioning and he was strong

for his size in some areas. However, 140lbs. is a 140lbs. Enough said.


Takayuki Kubota learned how to be a man at a young age. At 14,

after a few years of karate training both formal and solo, he left Okinawa

for Japan. He taught self-defense training to the Japanese police dept.

His training is very similiar to Morio Higaonna with hojo undo training.

He used to go to slaughterhouses to practice ikken hisatsu against pigs.

When he moved to L.A he has run a successful dojo and run

successful tournaments for over 40-50 years. He has also worked with

the LAPD for over 40 years in combatives. I have heard that in his

kumite divisions although not as strong as knockdown karate, he allows

heavier contact and sweeps than in most other traditional karate

tournaments.

Choki Motobu, I talked about him in a previous thread.

Bruce Lee is just an actor. The above 4 are very impressive martial artists

and combatants. I believe that Takayuki Kubota has the most experience

in a reality based situation. Choki Motobu in his time was awesome.

Morio Higaonna appears to be the real thing although he has not been

in a position to prove/disprove his self-defense kills to my knowledge.

Mas Oyama is also the real deal although his focus was more in combat

sport.

Osu!

[FredInChina]

Great post 49ers1970, repped.


Osu!

[49ers1970]

Osu! Fred,

Glad to rep! If I left anything out, please add to it.

I always found some of the Okinawan karate styles fascinating.

Even prior to Kyokushin, there have been full contact tournaments

in Okinawa a few decades earlier. The media exposure was

limited or nonexistent for its time. I doubt there were Thai style

leg kicks like Kyokushin. However, I believe that there was a

pioneer from Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu who did experiment with

Bogu equipment at one time. I forgot his name.

IMHO, I would like to see Kyokushin bring back more of its

Goju Ryu influence through more Bunkai waza, and self-defense

drills. A lot of drills I have experienced in karate schools in general

are the assumption that the assailant is "squaring off" with you. Also

the techniques that are defended against in these drills are karate

techniques. The odds of an assailant using karate techniques in that

manner are slim if not none.

More drills vs. a sucker punch, multiple attackers, weapons etc. are

something I would like to see more of. Knockdown karate has its

place, and should continue as such. In fact some techniques can

be adapted to self-defense, but Knockdown karate should not take

the place of the original intent of karate which is self-defense.

Osu!

[kanku]

Originally Posted by 49ers1970

Osu! Fred,

Interesting point you made on Mas Oyama vs. Morio Higaonna. With Mas

Oyama, I do not know much about his street background. I know he was

tied in with the yakuza to either a greater or lesser degree. His over 200

challenge matches in the U.S where he went undefeated were most likely his

pro wrestling matches. (He got into pro wrestling through wrestler,

Rikidozan.).

I know that Mas Oyama did get into a bar fight and killed a man with

a punch to the head. It is not known to my knowledge whether the victim

was already killed before hitting the ground or whether the impact of hitting

the ground caused that man's death.

Another interesting article, a rare candid article (I forgot the website),

Mas Oyama openly admits getting beaten up by 7 African American men in

an altercation in Chicago. However, there is very few people in the world

if any who can take out 7 determined men in a street altercation. Therefore,

in my eyes, this does not take away any credibility from Mas Oyama.

Mas Oyama would have had to have been a very strong individual both

physically and mentally to successfully introduce Karate in Japan during a

time when the hatred between the Koreans and Japanese were at an all time

high.

Morio Higaonna on the other hand, I do not know much about. I know

he grew up in Okinawa. I have not heard any stories of his tournament

fighting career. (I believe aside from his annual Iri Kumi Go event, he does

not care much for too much kumite competition).

I have also seen videos of Morio doing hand conditioning training. I

have also seen him spar and his sparring partners seem to get hurt when

either they attack Morio or defend against his attacks. I have heard through

a couple of high ranking karate instructors that Morio has been esteemed

locally as a very good fighter whether in training or on the street and that

Morio was not in position to where he needed to prove himself. It was just

fact.

Finally another interesting drill Morio does is he has a heavy duty cloth

suspending from the ceiling on a string with two hole in it. He randomly walks

by the cloth and performs eagle claw strike very accurately through the holes

without moving the cloth. That is scary.

It would be a very tough streetfight between Morio and Mas Oyama.

However, I guess your opinion from Morio winning most of the time stems

from the fact that Morio focuses more on bunkai waza and hojo undo for

the street while Mas Oyama does the above, but to a lesser extent and

focuses more on tournament knockdown kumite training, correct?

As far as Bruce Lee is concerned, he as a teenager did win a Chinese

Golden Gloves boxing tournament against the defending champion. He never

competed in any martial arts tournament that I know of. He was apparently

involved in a gang as a youth and did get into some fights.

Allegedly behind closed doors in his Kung Fu studios he did get into

some challenge matches against other Kung Fu masters. However, this info.

is a bit sketchy via the esoterical content of the 70's martial arts magazines.

I have heard from other sources of Bruce Lee getting beaten soundly

in either training sessions or challenge matches vs. Judo Gene Lebell,

Kyokushin fighter, Frank Clark and Kung Fu master, Leo Fong.

In conclusion, the myths vs. facts of Bruce Lee lie somewhere in

the middle. He was an actor, first and foremost. He was very disciplined

with his martial arts training and physical conditioning and he was strong

for his size in some areas. However, 140lbs. is a 140lbs. Enough said.


Takayuki Kubota learned how to be a man at a young age. At 14,

after a few years of karate training both formal and solo, he left Okinawa

for Japan. He taught self-defense training to the Japanese police dept.

His training is very similiar to Morio Higaonna with hojo undo training.

He used to go to slaughterhouses to practice ikken hisatsu against pigs.

When he moved to L.A he has run a successful dojo and run

successful tournaments for over 40-50 years. He has also worked with

the LAPD for over 40 years in combatives. I have heard that in his

kumite divisions although not as strong as knockdown karate, he allows

heavier contact and sweeps than in most other traditional karate

tournaments.

Choki Motobu, I talked about him in a previous thread.

Bruce Lee is just an actor. The above 4 are very impressive martial artists

and combatants. I believe that Takayuki Kubota has the most experience

in a reality based situation. Choki Motobu in his time was awesome.

Morio Higaonna appears to be the real thing although he has not been

in a position to prove/disprove his self-defense kills to my knowledge.

Mas Oyama is also the real deal although his focus was more in combat

sport.

Osu!

Osu 49ers!!

Not being that well versed in Japanese terminology, is ikken hisatsu a "chop"?

[49ers1970]

Osu!

Ikken Hisatsu means one punch, one kill. This does not mean that one will

take out his opponent with one strike. However, it is "the intent" of the individual

to take out the opponent with each and every strike he attempts to land.

In other words, no dancing around or feeling out process like in a combat

sporting event. In a self-defense situation, it should be one's goal to end

the fight as fast as possible.

Hope this helps.

Osu!

[kanku]

Originally Posted by 49ers1970

Osu!

Ikken Hisatsu means one punch, one kill. This does not mean that one will

take out his opponent with one strike. However, it is "the intent" of the individual

to take out the opponent with each and every strike he attempts to land.

In other words, no dancing around or feeling out process like in a combat

sporting event. In a self-defense situation, it should be one's goal to end

the fight as fast as possible.

Hope this helps.

Osu!

repped for your superb info!

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by 49ers1970

Osu!
Ikken Hisatsu means one punch, one kill. This does not mean that one will
take out his opponent with one strike. However, it is "the intent" of the individual
to take out the opponent with each and every strike he attempts to land.
In other words, no dancing around or feeling out process like in a combat
sporting event. In a self-defense situation, it should be one's goal to end
the fight as fast as possible.
Hope this helps.
Osu!

The one punch, one kill concept can also draw much of its origin to old school swordmanship and karate involvement in kendo schools as it was brought over to mainland Japan from Okinawa.

Killing with one strike, ending the fight in one hit, makes much more sense if you hit with a sword than if you hit with a fist.

[49ers1970]

Osu!

Thanks for the rep. guys.

Thanks for adding to the explanation with the sword as well.

Never knew that.

Osu!

[tmd]

I think it's a bit Harsh to right off Bruce Lee's ability because he was an actor. He was also an incredibly dedicated martial arts, his documentation , analyst's and practice of multiple arts through to the formation of his own system along side becoming one the first GLOBAL Martial Arts Star - a man who did more to fill dojo's across the world than any other should be given due credit.

I'm not saying he could have beaten Mas Oyama - very few could.

To most people Dolph Lungren is just that big russian from Rocky, or Mr Universe....or the Crazy guy in Expendibles - depending how old they are.

We know what he is, a very tallented and dedicated martial artist who was a great fighter, so good he caused changes to the rules of our beloved knockdown. Let's not fall foul of doing the same thing to a guy who has now been dead longer than he was alive.

[49ers1970]

Osu!

I have Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kun Do manual. For his time, his training ideas and

development of physical attributes, such as speed, timing, distancing, power etc.

were ahead of his time.

He lifted weights when doing so was frowned upon in the MA community.

He also had one manual, I forgot its name. The main focus was to look at each

martial art objectively. What are the strengths and weaknesses of that art,

what does one need to do to cover up these holes etc.

I have respect for him, but he was not invincible and he was not a World Class fighter.

He was a full time actor who made the most of the time he had as a dedicated

martial artist.

Who knows, however in these modern times, they have featherweight and lightweight

divisions in MMA. Perhaps if Bruce were living today in his 20's, gave up his acting

career for 5-10 years and focused on MMA, fulltime, maybe we would be talking about

Bruce Lee vs. the current champion for the featherweight title.

Osu!

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by 49ers1970

(...) Bruce Lee (...) lifted weights when doing so was frowned upon in the MA community. (...)

There are quite a bit of weight training described and promoted in Mas Oyama's "This Is Karate"...

From "This Is Karate" revised edition (Dec 1973) Chapter 27: Using Training Equipment:

As all our readers know, barbells are useful in developing strength, and jump rope is helpful in developing speed. As we have often noted, speed and strength are two of the most vital elements in karate. While you are young, concentrate on speed and strength and not so much on technique, because as you grow older your body's strength and speed will decline, and that will be the time when techniques will be important. If, when you are young, you concentrate on techniques to the neglect of strength and speed, you will be running up a blind alley. We repeat; while you are young, develop your strength and your speed, and devote yourself to achieving precision in the basic techniques only.

Harder! Faster! .................... (and if it doesn't work, do more!)


Then, found in the appendix, page 360, c. Training hall bylaws:

15. Anyone with a rating of second grade (second Dan?) or higher, received from headquarters, shall be eligible to be Chairman of an overseas branch office.

Hummm, attempting to connect the dots:
All were young men, specifically instructed to focus on strength, speed & not so much on techniques... that dispersed the world over to spread kyokushin; they established branch offices, recruited students, and started teaching what they knew: Get stronger, get faster, don't worry about technique...
When have these early young pioneers of kyokushin really study technique in depth? Did they ever return to Honbu for years at a time to complete their technical training? Nope, they had the world to conquer, a mission to fulfill and the kyokushin brand to build and grow... then they left to create their own organizations, modified the kata or did away with it, etc...
Is that why & how the fundamental technique of karate found in kata eventually got lost in kyokushin?

I don't know...


Osu!

[49ers1970]

Osu! Fred,

That might be the case that there is evidence of weightlifting in This is

Karate text. However, this along with some of the Hojo Undo methods

of Goju Ryu were the exception to the rule.

Mas Oyama was ahead of his time. In his prime, he was about 40lbs.

off the World Record in the bench press, benching 460lbs. The record at

the time was about 500lbs.

There is footage of the 1st Kyokushin World Champion, Sato

weight training/plyometrics etc. in preparation for the 1st World

tournament. He was also a high ranking Judoka. Weight training

had been for a long time a supplement in Judo and wrestling.

In karate, with the exception of the higher end athletes, it was still

the exception than the norm.

Even in the 80's when I was growing up, the concept of sports

specific training was not clear cut. I witnessed a lot of martial artists

do bodybuilder type workouts. Later on they would quit saying that

weight training made them too bulky. Then there was the other segment

of the martial population that would say, "See, I told you so. Just do

calisthenics and isometrics like Bruce Lee and you will be strong, yet

flexible and athletic."

Luckily, information technology has grown in leaps and bounds

since then.

Osu!

[brehlirpa]

The Kyokushin "Dream Match" I would like to see is one that I have been thinking about since the late sixties; American Joe Lewis versus any of the Kyokushin Champions of his era including Sato, Ninomiya, etc.

Black Belt magazine used to regularly state that he wanted to fight American JKA Champion Frank Smith in a tournament, and he would even wear a white belt in the match, but the JKA organization did not allow him to enter any of their tournaments ( according to Lewis??? ).

It has always seemed odd to me that even though Mr. Lewis had received his Black Belt in Okinawan Shorin-Ryu, he never spoke in public about the possibility of entering any Kyokushin All-Japan or Oyama World Karate Championship tournaments. Every time I see the karate publications write that Joe was "the greatest karate fighter of all time (in 1983)" I cannot for the life of me figure out why someone doesn't amend that "title" and say that he was perhaps the "greatest AMERICAN karate fighter of HIS ERA ( and he would have had to defeat Frank Smith to claim that...

I personally don't think he could beat Smith in a match using Shotokan rules...just my opinion...Smith was a helluva fighter in the JKA system )?" There were a handful of other really good martial artists in the Shotokan and Kyokushin styles that I personally believe would have given him all he could handle in either "tag" or "knockdown." I say this with respect to Lewis because I have seen him live in many USKA matches, and in three of his full-contact matches.
He was awesome in many of his matches, but best ever? Not in my book.

[FredInChina]

Osu Brehlirpa, welcome to the forum

I have edited your post to add paragraphs; this makes it a lot more user friendly!

Could you please drop by the intro sections and tell us a little bit about yourself so the community can welcome you properly?
Thank you!


Osu!

[49ers1970]

Osu!

Joe Lewis was great for his time. On the point karate circuit scene, in the

60's and 70's he was a major rival of some of the other top fighters.

These included Bill Wallace, Ron Marchini, Chuck Norris, Benny Urquidez,

Hawk Frazier etc.

He was the original pioneer of PKA Kickboxing, being the 1st ever

heavyweight champion. For his time, he was a beast at 200lbs. of

rock solid muscle. However, he was the benificiary of a weak era where

most of his opponents came from regular dojos, trying to learn how

to kickbox. Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace etc. had more access to better boxing

coaches. Some of their opponents did not while some others did to their

credit.

Once the early 80's hit, Joe Lewis's drug problems caught up to him

and he aged fast. He tried to make a comeback, but got TKO'd twice

by two top contenders. Forgot their names.

According to people I have spoken to from that era, Chuck Norris,

Bill Wallace etc. were typically fan friendly. Joe Lewis liked to play the

unapproachable BadBoy/Toughguy character.

There are some other things I know about Joe that I have heard from

his contemporaries which I would rather keep to myself regarding his

strengths and weaknesses as a martial artist and person.

Nevertheless, I respect Joe as being a very good fighter for his time.

From time to time he has some good articles in Black Belt magazine on

fight strategy, training, conditioning etc. that still is sound advice in

today's era. He even admitted that he overtrained in his younger days

and has a more systematic approach to the way he trains other fighters.

As a fight fan, I wish the powers to be in the different organizations

would have been more flexible with having their fighters fight other fighters

from other organizations once in a while.

For example, I would have liked to have seen/heard of Joe Lewis vs.

Frank Smith etc.

If Joe Lewis had either joined Kyokushin or competed in their Open

tournaments, he would no longer be the "Big Bully" or intimidating force.

(Assuming he had 6 months to train for knockdown rules)

He would have been considered just another tough guy. He would have

actually been dwarfed by some of the other Hulking Heavyweights like

Willie Williams, Claude Battle etc. I believe he would have held his

own and beaten perhaps some of the lesser fighters, however, he would

have been humbled and lost to the top Contenders like Ninomiya, Sato,

Hans Lundgren, top Americans etc.

Osu!

[kittykittysan]

the Joe Lewis "mystique" was dissolved in 1974 ( not sure about the year, but I watched the match in Hawaii ) when he got beaten by a "club" boxer named Teddy Limoz. Limoz just stepped in, leaned on Joe for the whole match, and pounded away with body shots and head shots. Joe had no answer for that. It was the World Series of Martial Arts tourney. If he had competed in "knockdown karate" he would have had to ditch his sidekick and backfist, which were his point karate bread and butter techniques. In my opinion, Joe would have never made it to a "knockdown karate" final. The frist few fights would have found him beaten to a pulp. A much tougher competitor would have been Mike Stone, a Hawaii native, and a truly tough fighter who would have really made a mark in Kyokushinkai had he gone that way. Think of a smaller version of Filho, but meaner and tougher. I'm serious. Stone was, and remains today, a man who can absorb pain as well as dish it out. My kind of martial artist. One last thing about Lewis; he passed away last week from cancer. It irks me when I see posthumous R.I.P.'s calling him the GREATEST KARATE FIGHTER OF ALL TIME, but that is just the "mystique" that Black Belt magazine built around him. Check his fight record out and you will find that he had his share of defeats that no one seems to acknowledge. He would have been pretty good in Kyokushin competition, bot a World Open Champion...I don't think so!

[FredInChina]

Kittykittysan, please open a thread in the intro sections of the forum and tell us about yourself so we can welcome you properly.
Thanks

AND, please use paragraphs so your posts are pleasant to read, and not an indigestible block of text!

Osu!

[49ers1970]

Osu!

One of my former World Oyama instructors, told me the story of a point tournament

event that took place in New York in the early 70's for money in which he had

participated in. He said Joe Lewis was in the other bracket. When he had met Joe

he was very polite and respectful. On that same day, my former instructor said that

Joe got knocked out by a chudan ushiro mawashi geri by a member of the Purple

Dragons. (I am not sure which martial art or organization this is from).

Osu!

[sokaiya]

Originally Posted by 49ers1970

His over 200

challenge matches in the U.S where he went undefeated were most likely his

pro wrestling matches. (He got into pro wrestling through wrestler,

Rikidozan.).

Osu 49ers!

According to my own personal research (because of my love for pro-wrestling + kyokushin) I could never find a card or results where Mas Oyama actually wrestled a match.

Here's more on that from someone who did even more thorough research.
http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-oyama.html

[49ers1970]

Originally Posted by sokaiya

Osu 49ers!

According to my own personal research (because of my love for pro-wrestling + kyokushin) I could never find a card or results where Mas Oyama actually wrestled a match.

Here's more on that from someone who did even more thorough research.
http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-oyama.html

Osu!

Interesting, Sokaiya. When time permits, I will look up this link. Assuming it is

true that Mas Oyama did not partake in pro wrestling matches; it is also

interesting that for Mas Oyama's challenge matches vs. other fighters,

assuming these are real MMA type of matches, there is no date, time,

name of opponent etc. One might argue that people back then were not

very meticulous about record keeping.

However, this is not true either. A few decades prior to this,

Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu legend, Choki Motobu at 60 something legitimately

defeated some boxers, wrestlers and Judoka in challenge matches in Hawaii.

Whatever the case, Mas Oyama proved in other ways that he was formidable

in his infamous bar fight and his 300 man kumite. (Whether he actually did

the 300 man kumite or not is debatable, but he proved that he could handle

countless amounts of sparring partners in succession.)

Osu!