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[tmd]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Sorry to say, but nobody is that dumb, let alone Sosai!
Best way to say no without saying anything... very much an Asian thing.
And, thank you very much, but we dodged that one: who ever wants to be like TKD?



Osu!

This was a direct acount from the man in the middle of it, feel free to question him I see no reason for him to not be truthfull.

I see what Sosai did and have my opinion as to why, but will keep that to myself - personally I think it's clear for all to see.

TKD was TKD before the Olympics, nothing changed except the numbers of people doing it and the govenmental support for training and elite programs, I'll have some of that thanks very much.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

(...) Kyokushin going back to its roots?

hehehe, that could easily become a modus operandi...

Osu!

Originally Posted by tmd

This was a direct acount from the man in the middle of it, feel free to question him I see no reason for him to not be truthful.

Oh no, I am not questioning the veracity and sincerity of Hanshi Arneil relating the events; I also believe that he did the best he could and put a lot of goodwill into making it happen.

But hey, I also could be completely wrong in my assessment of Sosai's intent and purpose...

Originally Posted by tmd

TKD was TKD before the Olympics, nothing changed except the numbers of people doing it and the govenmental support for training and elite programs, I'll have some of that thanks very much.

The more I look into it, the more TKD appears to me as a "me too" product born from a desire for international recognition, supported by a very strong government initiative, to be used as a promotional tool, likely designed specifically with this in mind, and launched when Japan (the arch rival/enemy at that time) was on its knees!

Of course, this is just an opinion formed from connecting the dots of history... Time, timing, sequence, lag, rhythm and beat... There could never have been a better opportunity for it to succeed!


Osu!

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

hehehe, that could easily become a modus operandi...

Well, that would be a total different emphasis than a sporting method ...

[tmd]

What about a stealth attack: just stuck this on FB - let's see how many likes it gets...

Kyokushin in the Olympics? Mmm let me think what does it take to be an Olympic Athlete? Dedication, Technique, Speed, Power, Co-ordination? all these's are covered in any good Kyokushin dojo - so while you're deciding which Olympic Sport you're going to do GET TO YOUR LOCAL DOJO!

[ODL_26]

WKF is certainly first in line to get Karate into the Olympics, first of all because they have been modifying their structures ans statutes since their founding to suit the IOC demands and the rule changes have followed too. For those insterested in seeing knockdown karate in the Olympics, actually the WKF might provide a shortcut...

In some countries where sport is heavily organised by the government, the national WKF affiliated organisation is the sole organisation recognized for all Karate. This means that the fullcontact karate styles are often part of a "kyokushin" or "knockdown" section or commission and get their tournaments sanctioned by the national federation (I think this is the case with France for example -if I'm not mistaken- maybe someone from there could shed some more light on the subject).

So... the trick would be to set up a fullcontact section in your WKF national federation, get all the knockdown styles in, draft some unified rules for knockdown tounaments. If many countries follow in this way, there might be a chance to have knockdown as an event within the olympic karate tounament: kata, wkf-traditional (yes, I know...!), knockdown.

Of course, the final decision will always remain in the hands of the IOC.

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by ODL_26

So... the trick would be to set up a fullcontact section in your WKF national federation, get all the knockdown styles in, draft some unified rules for knockdown tounaments. If many countries follow in this way, there might be a chance to have knockdown as an event within the olympic karate tounament: kata, wkf-traditional (yes, I know...!), knockdown.

In South Africa, we've always had Full Contact as a partner in the National Federation as the WKF does not consider Full Contact (Knockdown) as a dissident body as it does the WKC or WUKO or WUKF.

However, because of the absence of a World Governing body, we've had endless problems - before it was less so because we only had one Kyokushin. However, with the proliferation of the Kyokushin groups, it has worsened.

The biggest problem we have is that everyone wants to be boss because they are so and so person or their organisation is the biggest or they are the original IKO, etc. Another problem is that everyone wants their rules to be the official rules.

We have now again embarked on improving the Full Contact rules and I would actually love it if all of you can take a moment to download it from http://www.karatesouthafrica.org/html/rules.html and give me your feedback as to how much different (if any) it is to your organisation's rules - especially the rules for knockdown.

And probably the biggest (no pun intended) problem is that I'm around and I'm public enemy no.1 for many of the Kyokushin head honcho's here - but that is a story for another day.

[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Thank you for sharing your sources and how you got to an estimate of the numbers you are promoting, it is clear!



12,000,000 members was already claimed by Sosai 35 years ago... I guess someone forgot to update the IKO1 website.

And, BTW, this number has been demonstrated to be a wild overstatement by myself here on K4L, using Holland with 400 dojo and extrapolating to the world.

Here is a short version:
12,000,000 is 2 per thousand of the world population.
all other things being equal (*), that would mean there are 20,000 kyokushin active practitioners in Tokyo, and 16,000 in NY alone.

That is NOT the case.


Osu!


(*) please note that all other things ar not equal! You'd need to remove 50 countries that don't have kyokushin, most of Africa & China that maybe has 1,000 practitioners. Then most of the USA if I am to believe the frustration of some members in view of the very small number of dojo!
That means Tokyo might need to host 60,000 and NY 54,000!!!

If you pay attention to the Matsuiha website, you should realise that Matsuiha is honest enough in their statistics to include a figure called "active members". The 12,000,000 figure is to show that Matsuiha inherits the legacy of Oyama Sosai. You can say it is a political statement or they pay tribute to the legacy of Sosai if you like.

http://www.kyokushin4life.com/forums...d.php?p=237844

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

Matsuiha (as of 2009)
National (in Japan)
Shibu: 101
Dojo: 900
Active members: 50,000
Accumulated members: 600,000

Overseas
Shibu: 170
Dojo: 6,500
Active members: 800,000
Accumulated members: 12,500,000

Shinkyokushin (as of 2011)
National (in Japan): 20,000
Overseas: 60,000
(as of 2010)
National (in Japan): 20,000
Overseas:80,000

Kyokushinkan
All members: 30,000

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

If you pay attention to the Matsuiha website, you should realise that Matsuiha is honest enough in their statistics to include a figure called "active members".

800 000 to the 60 000 of Shin Kyokushin is a huge difference - also if one looks at their branches, it does look like the WKO has either the same or more. And has Shin Kyokushin lost 20 000 members from 2010- 2011???

Kyokushin Kan with 30 000 members seems a more reasonable amount based on that they are a newer group.

[shidokanatlanta]

A good thing about any martial art becoming an Olympic sport is that more competition opportunities will come about for aspiring Olympians. Knockdown tournaments are seldom compared to other combat sports (Boxing, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, Wrestling, etc.). The more experience athletes have, the better the competition gets (more tournaments at local, regional, national, etc.).

[tmd]

I would say being around 1m and not 12 is either irrelevant or beneficial. The reason, to me sports such as football being included is a joke is because they are already MASSIVE! Global sports with a world cup only out watched by the Olympics!!! Why does it need the Olympics?


What I think it should be there for is for the minority sports, to help gain greater awareness for them and to provide a global audience platform that they could never fund or support. Handball, Wrestling, TKD, synchronised swimming - even some of the cycling, swimming and track events can not claim a higher participation or any greater awareness than Kyokushin.

But another question, our of 1m (a more reasonable figure) of Kyokushin practitioners - how many adult knockdown fighters are there globally? Out of around 100 active dojo members we have 3-5 knockdown fighters, 1-2 if you are talking national quality so let's say 1% so that's 10'000 Globally - a decent number if ever there was one as this would mean in an event like the Olympics where you could only probably accommodate 100-200 fighters you'd have the top 1-2% on show, guaranteeing a fantastic standard of fighting.

[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

And the K is on the Way - voting is encouraged ...


check the highlighted points ...

[Dent]

Osu!

What a load of codswallop.

Karate is a combat sport.

65%? Proof?

What the heck does "economic volume" mean?

Spectacular sport? Are we introducing star spangled awesomeness...?

100 million practitioners? 10 million are competitors? Proof?

Universal? There are hundreds, if not thousands of rule sets for all the different groups.

General belief that Karate is in the Olympics. This is a reason to make it an Olympic sport? Because members and non-members have been fooled into believing that it is an Olympic sport?

Not sure which is the biggest lie. "Karate cares for its athletes", or "Karate is globally organized". Anyone lying that much is clearly a politician, and cannot be trusted.

I vote No! on Karate in the Olympics!

Osu!

[FredInChina]

LOL... 20 or 100 millions, what is the difference?


Osu!

[slaine]

Originally Posted by Dent

Osu!

What a load of codswallop.

Karate is a combat sport.

65%? Proof?

What the heck does "economic volume" mean?

Spectacular sport? Are we introducing star spangled awesomeness...?

100 million practitioners? 10 million are competitors? Proof?

Universal? There are hundreds, if not thousands of rule sets for all the different groups.

General belief that Karate is in the Olympics. This is a reason to make it an Olympic sport? Because members and non-members have been fooled into believing that it is an Olympic sport?

Not sure which is the biggest lie. "Karate cares for its athletes", or "Karate is globally organized". Anyone lying that much is clearly a politician, and cannot be trusted.

I vote No! on Karate in the Olympics!

Osu!

That made me laugh but all true , I'm backing your campaign '' I Vote NO ''.

[shidokanatlanta]

It will be cool to see any kind of Karate in the Olympics. This style has been working on getting in the Games for years. WKF is the largest governing body for sport karate with over 130 countries. They are getting big support from other major groups like JKF too. I wish them good luck.

[slaine]

Originally Posted by SHIDOKANATLANTA

It will be cool to see any kind of Karate in the Olympics.

I'm sorry I have to disagree and I hope it never happens , if it does it will be the kind of Karate that I've been disassociating myself from for years .

[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

This will certainly create an interesting debate - those pro-WKF will support and those others won't. BUT, I wonder where the various Kyokushin groups will feature or does feature in this set-up?

[Tay]

I'm with SHIDOKANATLANTA on this one, and I'd rather watch WKF Karate than Tae Kwon Do.

[shidokanatlanta]

Perhaps you will find some enjoy from watching. I do. I find some of the athletes to be very talented. There are lot folks here who aren't for it. But, I'm sure if it ends up in the Games we'll all watch it to see what happens.

[49ers1970]

Osu!

I agree. In Tae Kwon Do competitions, the referee discourages much punching

techniques if at all.

I assume that the WKF is similiar to WUKO rules if I am not mistaken. The technique

is clean. These fighters have explosive footwork to go with the clean technique.

I believe sweeps are also legal.

It makes for an interesting event to observe. Of course, I prefer watching

knockdown competitions. However, I appreciate both. I used to compete in

hard style Japanese point tournaments before competing in knockdown.

Osu!