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[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by Thunar

Ignition is something that cama after years and years of extreme hard work and dificulties.....before filho was a champion he was a little kid trainned by Ademir da Costa, and before him Shihan Isobe trainned Da Costa for years without the proper finantial compensation....without government incentive, with many students quitting looking for a more belt oriented and soft style like shotokan......and many other obstacles......
And even after Filho won the world championship.......do you know how many newspaper or tv channels told his story to the world???.........0........the general public does not even know what kyokushin is.....
That is why I keep saying that the success of brazilian kyokushin is only because of the commitment and hard work of our fighters and the discipline from Shihan Isobe. He could be rich by now teaching watered down kyokushin for millions and oppening dojos like a fast food chain, but he was honest with himself and his art and let kyokushin grow slowly but with a lot of quality.

Osu

As for Japan Filho Shihan's defeat was more inspiring, as it gives people a more realistic sense of what Kyokushin can do.

When he first debuted in K-1 there was a lot of hype in Japan as Kyokushin had been "locked up" for so many years. When Filho Shihan was knockouted by JLB many Kyokushin guys were shocked and I can still remember some of the article titles. He was the first reigning world champion to be sent straight to canvas. Shocking but it changed the way many people in Japan thought of Kyokushin, not necessarily in a negative sense.

Kyokushin is still very popular in Japan but the "fantasy" (since the 70's) has gone.

[FredInChina]

Osu,


Interesting Shokei_Marcsui.......... but I'll wait two years to read "the other book" that will show Gladwell, Coyle, Syed and their brothers in quick mass marketing the errors of their ways!


Osu!

[49ers1970]

Osu!

Kakatooshi, interesting point. I think the only people that were surprised about JLB

knocking out Filho were mainly the IKO 1 group or any other Kyokushin group that wants

to promote itself as "the best" and only style that should be in existence. These are the

same people who want to refer back to the day in the 60's era when Sosai sent 3 men to

Thailand and 2 out of the 3 Kyokushin fighters defeated Muay Thai fighters. There are

some Kyokushin groups that are very prideful about this history and like to say, " Hey

Kyokushin is better than Muay Thai, look what happened in that event back in the

1960's, end of story." If one were to bring up JLB defeating Filho, those same people

would pull a rabbit out of the hat and say, "Hey, we are not only a sport, but a martial

art. We practice Budo, Muay Thai is just a sport and that's all they do is practice for

sport."

In all reality, for most serious fight fans in Kyokushin, Muay Thai etc., I do not

believe the World of Kyokushin took a big hit when JLB knocked out Filho. The fact

of the matter is, back in 1996, Andy Hug won the K-1 WGP and was a runner up in 1997

and 1998. Filho had also knocked out K-1 Legend, Ernesto Hoost on one occasion in 9

seconds.

When Filho got knocked out by JLB, he and stablemate, Glaube Feitosa trained for a

period in Seattle, Washington with Maurice Smith to improve their boxing skills.

Although there was a "so called" loss of face in the Kyokushin community, both guys

became better all around standup fighters not only in Knockdown Karate, but K-1.

This is the true meaning of the word, "Kyokushin" in search of the Ultimate Truth.

Sometimes searching for the "Ultimate Truth" means one has to "stick his neck out"

and pay the price. At the end of the day, "the truth" trumps politics any day of the

week. If one makes "the truth" work for him/her in a positive way, there is no greater

reward in the end for an individual or perhaps an organization.

Osu!

P.S: I think you mentioned to me previously about changing my margins to make my

posts, wider and shorter in length. Please bear with me, I use different computers on

different days. I have to have someone help me figure this out.

[sandman]

Osu!

Regardless of your page margins, that was a great post 49'ers Repped from me!

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

As for Japan Filho Shihan's defeat was more inspiring, as it gives people a more realistic sense of what Kyokushin can do.

When he first debuted in K-1 there was a lot of hype in Japan as Kyokushin had been "locked up" for so many years. When Filho Shihan was knockouted by JLB many Kyokushin guys were shocked and I can still remember some of the article titles. He was the first reigning world champion to be sent straight to canvas. Shocking but it changed the way many people in Japan thought of Kyokushin, not necessarily in a negative sense.

Kyokushin is still very popular in Japan but the "fantasy" (since the 70's) has gone.

Osu! This is such an interesting thread. What do you mean when you say the "fantasy(since the 1970's) has gone"? Do you mean the promotional propoganda surrounding the style as being "The Strongest"? I think that Shihan Filho made a very good showing of himself in K-1, a fighting sport that is very different in rules and concept to Kyokushin style fighting. I wonder how many K-1 fighters would have been successful fighting in open weight Kyokushin tournaments against knockdown fighters(especially the Russians)?

I think alot of it has to do with the rules and being adequately prepared to fight under these conditions. I have to take my hat off to Kyokushin fighters who compete in other fighting sports and win sometimes and lose sometimes. I don't see competitors from other karate styles in Japan ever venturing into other fighting sports competitions, taking on top level competitors with no previous experience on their part. You only see this with Kyokushin(and a few of it's offshoots). You have to give Kyokushin fighters credit for having the guts(spirit) to get out there and try. I think it greatly enhances their fighting experience and confidence as fighters.

When I saw the fight with JLB vs. Filho, when I saw the knockout, it made me feel bad initially. Especially the fact that he was a Kyokushin world champion. Later, I looked at it a different way. JLB was one of the best kickboxers in the world and was well known for his aggressive, knockout style. Shihan Filho made a mistake, but he grew even stronger from the experience. That is the mark of a "true" champion and showed what he was made of. I was very proud of him at that time. It is too bad that K-1 had to die out in Japan, it was a very exciting competition with alot of fighters with great talent.

Maybe Japan will have a similiar kickboxing event like that in the future.

Osu!

[SteveK]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

I have to take my hat off to Kyokushin fighters who compete in other fighting sports and win sometimes and lose sometimes. I don't see competitors from other karate styles in Japan ever venturing into other fighting sports competitions, taking on top level competitors with no previous experience on their part. You only see this with Kyokushin(and a few of it's offshoots). You have to give Kyokushin fighters credit for having the guts(spirit) to get out there and try. I think it greatly enhances their fighting experience and confidence as fighters.

I think one of the reasons for this maybe that Kyokushin fighters don't generally grow up counting their win loss records at least the ones I know - I remember when Daniel first started training Muay Thai in Australia many guys were only concerned with their win loss records, I think this is a cultural thing - when he came to Thailand no one really cares about your win loss record but who have you fought - anyone in Muay Thai who has spent any reasonable time training in Thailand has a similar mentality - the good guys are concerned about the quality of the guys they fight not protecting some record - I think Kyokushin is much the same it is better to have a fight record listing names that count than one that is unblemished with no-names.

[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by 49ers1970

P.S: I think you mentioned to me previously about changing my margins to make my

posts, wider and shorter in length. Please bear with me, I use different computers on

different days. I have to have someone help me figure this out.

That is alright if you have already tried your best. Just keep using your wordperfect/lotus 123.

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Osu! This is such an interesting thread. What do you mean when you say the "fantasy(since the 1970's) has gone"? Do you mean the promotional propoganda surrounding the style as being "The Strongest"?

Yes, sort of.

Originally Posted by SteveK

I think one of the reasons for this maybe that Kyokushin fighters don't generally grow up counting their win loss records at least the ones I know

I think people are more concerned about the kind of tournaments these fighters have entered. Since Kyokushin is a tournament-based sport a list of tournaments someone has entered/won makes more sense. People with knowledge will be able judge the quality of the tournament. And people will also judge the quality of these individual tournaments. The major organisations have some prestigious tournaments which truly signify success. Of course you can never stop some bogus groups and their members from making people think they have good tournaments by words-of-mouth through the internet.

Originally Posted by SteveK

anyone in Muay Thai who has spent any reasonable time training in Thailand has a similar mentality - the good guys are concerned about the quality of the guys they fight not protecting some record - I think Kyokushin is much the same it is better to have a fight record listing names that count than one that is unblemished with no-names.

I do not think you are against counting fight records, you are just adding that quality must be added to these records, and I think the top fighters of reputable organisations of Kyokushin do that. In the biographies or verbal recounts of the champions they always mention their most memorable fights against some of the best fighters. No one will talk about that anonymous guy they beat in the 1st or 2nd round.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

(...) Since Kyokushin is a tournament-based sport (...)

Is that a reductionist view of kyokushin KakatoOtoshi?


Osu!

[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Is that a reductionist view of kyokushin KakatoOtoshi?


Osu!

No, I think we are here discussing about the sport aspect of Kyokushin.

Since we are mentioning keeping fight records, it will be hilarious to say "we are Budo we train our mind blah blah blah".

[49ers1970]

Osu!,

The topic of "1970's Kyokushin fantasy,". I believe this was propoganda.

One has to market his system to the masses to sell his product. It is no

different in for example, a Shotokan system where for example the head

instructor will say, " We have 40 World Champions over the least 10

years in WUKO competition. Karate has become an Olympic sport. Why

don't you train with our future Olympians?" To the uneducated newbie,

this is eye catching and attractive.

Even some of the top Kyokushin fighters and instructors of that time

knew some of the limitations of Kyokushin and either secretly or

directly cross trained in Muay Thai or boxing to fill in the tactical gaps.

As far as other styles not competing in the World Tournament, I

thought in recent years IKO 1 only allows the top IKO 1 fighters to

compete for example. Shinkyokushin, Ashihara etc. appear to be

some of the very few organizations that give out open invitations

to other styles/orgs.

In the smaller B level venues, I have witnessed or have seen

fighters every once in a while win Knockdown competitions from

various styles including Tae Kwon Do, Shotokan, Sanshou, Shorin Ryu,

Shorinji Kempo etc.

Some other organizations have stringent rules about having their

students/fighters competing only in their style of fighting. Some of these

fighters risk getting kicked out of the organization if they are caught

competing in other venues. I believe it has more to do with the

powers to be in the organizations rather than the fighters in order to

"protect" the legacy of that particular style.

Osu!

[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by 49ers1970

As far as other styles not competing in the World Tournament, I

thought in recent years IKO 1 only allows the top IKO 1 fighters to

compete for example. Shinkyokushin, Ashihara etc. appear to be

some of the very few organizations that give out open invitations

to other styles/orgs.

That is not true and similar misinformation will only fester in English forums like this one. There are ongoing appearances of Seidokaikan fighters in Matsuiha Tournaments. They have fought for Japan before and whoever qualify they will allow themselves to fight in world tournaments.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

That is not true and similar misinformation will only fester in English forums like this one. There are ongoing appearances of Seidokaikan fighters in Matsuiha Tournaments. They have fought for Japan before and whoever qualify they will allow themselves to fight in world tournaments.

Great piece of info KakatoOtoshi, thank you.
Are you saying that Marsuiha tournaments are open to anyone from any organization, providing they qualify?
Do you know how the process of qualification is done?


Osu!

[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Great piece of info KakatoOtoshi, thank you.
Are you saying that Marsuiha tournaments are open to anyone from any organization, providing they qualify?
Do you know how the process of qualification is done?


Osu!

I do not know if some fighters are wiped out inside the conference room. But for other organisations who people think are more "open", if you pay close attention to the name of those alien organisations you will keep seeing the same names. Is that openness?

One thing I am sure, when you see a lot of different organisations in a single Kyokushin/Full-Contact tournament in Japan (I do not want to talk about other countries), the quality of fights is using going downward.

There are also people who do not give you an idea how many viewers are actually attracted to their events and let people from overseas give them some cheap OSU from facebook and let people think they have hold a successful tournament. Blame it on MMA for the lost of audience lol.

This openness will always lead to progress and friendship is cheap talking in my opinion.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

I do not know if some fighters are wiped out inside the conference room. But for other organisations who people think are more "open", if you pay close attention to the name of those alien organisations you will keep seeing the same names. Is that openness?

One thing I am sure, when you see a lot of different organisations in a single Kyokushin/Full-Contact tournament in Japan (I do not want to talk about other countries), the quality of fights is using going downward.

There are also people who do not give you an idea how many viewers are actually attracted to their events and let people from overseas give them some cheap OSU from facebook and let people think they have hold a successful tournament. Blame it on MMA for the lost of audience lol.

This openness will always lead to progress and friendship is cheap talking in my opinion.

I understand, thank you for sharing your opinion kakatootoshi, appreciated.
As to my two precise and specific questions............

Plus this one: Are Matsuiha members freely allowed to participate in any tourney of their own choosing?


Osu!

[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Plus this one: Are Matsuiha members freely allowed to participate in any tourney of their own choosing?

I will tactfully answer this one.

In Japan if you see someone with titles from a whole lot of different Karate organisations.

1)a kid.
2)someone from a small group.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

I will tactfully answered this one.

In Japan if you see someone with titles from different a whole lot of Karate organisations.

1)a kid.
2)someone from a small group.

Fair enough kakatoOtoshi Sama, thank you


Osu!

[Thunar]

Originally Posted by kakatootoshi

As for Japan Filho Shihan's defeat was more inspiring, as it gives people a more realistic sense of what Kyokushin can do.

When he first debuted in K-1 there was a lot of hype in Japan as Kyokushin had been "locked up" for so many years. When Filho Shihan was knockouted by JLB many Kyokushin guys were shocked and I can still remember some of the article titles. He was the first reigning world champion to be sent straight to canvas. Shocking but it changed the way many people in Japan thought of Kyokushin, not necessarily in a negative sense.

Kyokushin is still very popular in Japan but the "fantasy" (since the 70's) has gone.

I don`t think that Filho had such an ridiculous carrer at K1..........

Titles and accomplishments

Kickboxing
2001 K-1 World Grand Prix Runner Up
2001 K-1 World Grand Prix in Fukuoka Repechage A Champion
2000 K-1 World GP in Yokohama Champion
Kyokushin[2]
1999 7th Kyokushin World Open Karate Tournament IKO 1 (defeated Hajime Kazumi)
1997 1st Kyokushin World Weight Tournament Heavyweight
1995 6th Kyokushin World Open Karate Tournament IKO 1 (lost to Hajime Kazumi)
1995 Brazilian Open
1994 Mundialito Open
1994 7th South American Championships
1993 Brazilian Open
1992 6th South American Championships
1992 Brazilian Open
1991 5th Kyokushin World Open Karate Tournament final 16 (lost to Kenji Yamaki)
1991 Uruguayan Open Karate Championships
1990 Paulista Championships
1990 Brazilian Open
1989 5th South American Championships
1989 Paulista Championships
1988 Paulista Championships Juniors
1988 Brazilian Open 6th place
1987 Brazilian Open 7th place
1987 Paulista Championships Juniors
1986 Paulista Championships Juniors
1985 Paulista Championships Juniors
In 1995 Fancisco Filho completed 100 man kumite in Brazil and in Japan.
[edit]Kickboxing record

Kickboxing record
16 Wins (9 (T)KO's, 7 Decisions), 7 Losses, 2 Draws[hide]
Date Result Opponent Event Location Method Round Time Record
2004-05-30 Win Remy Bonjasky Kyokushin vs K-1 2004 All Out Battle Tokyo, Japan Decision (Unanimous) 3 3:00 15-7-3
2003-12-31 Win Toa K-1 PREMIUM 2003 Dynamite!! Tokyo, Japan Decision (Split) 3 3:00 14-7-3
2003-10-11 Loss Stefan Leko K-1 World Grand Prix 2003 Final Elimination Osaka, Japan Decision (Unanimous) 3 3:00 13-7-3
2003-07-13 Draw Mike Bernardo K-1 World Grand Prix 2003 in Fukuoka Fukuoka, Japan Decision draw 5 3:00 13-6-3
2001-12-18 Loss Mark Hunt K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 Final Tokyo, Japan Ext R Decision (Unanimous) 4 3:00 13-6-2
Fight was for K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 tournament title.
2001-12-18 Win Alexey Ignashov K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 Semi Finals Tokyo, Japan Decision (Unanimous) 3 3:00 13-5-2
2001-12-18 Win Peter Aerts K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 Quarter Finals Tokyo, Japan TKO (Corner stoppage) 2 3:00 12-5-2
2001-10-08 Win Lloyd van Dams K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 in Fukuoka Final Fukuoka, Japan Ext.R Decision (Majority) 4 3:00 11-5-2
Wins K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 in Fukuoka Repechage A Tournament.
2001-10-08 Win Sergei Ivanovich K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 in Fukuoka Semi Finals Fukuoka, Japan Decision (Unanimous) 3 3:00 10-5-2
2001-08-11 Loss Sergei Ivanovich K-1 World Grand Prix 2001 in Las Vegas Quarter Finals Las Vegas, Nevada Ext.R Decision (Unanimous) 4 3:00 9-5-2
2000-12-10 Loss Ernesto Hoost K-1 World Grand Prix 2000 Semi Finals Tokyo, Japan Decision (Unanimous) 3 3:00 9-4-2
2000-12-10 Win Stefan Leko K-1 World Grand Prix 2000 Quarter Finals Tokyo, Japan Ext.R Decision (Unanimous) 4 3:00 9-3-2
2000-08-10 Win Cyril Abidi K-1 World Grand Prix 2000 in Yokohama Final Yokohama, Japan TKO (Corner stoppage) 2 0:25 8-3-2
Wins K-1 World Grand Prix 2000 in Yokohama Tournament title.
2000-08-10 Win Matt Skelton K-1 World Grand Prix 2000 in Yokohama Semi Finals Yokohama, Japan KO (Right punch) 2 2:42 7-3-2
2000-08-10 Win Tsuyoshi Nakasako K-1 World Grand Prix 2000 in Yokohama Quarter Finals Yokohama, Japan Decision (Unanimous) 3 3:00 6-3-2
2000-04-23 Loss Jérôme Le Banner K-1 The Millennium Yokohama, Japan KO (Left straight cross) 1 2:02 5-3-2
1999-04-25 Win Ernesto Hoost K-1 Revenge '99 Yokohama, Japan KO (Right hook) 1 1:37 5-2-2
1998-12-13 Loss Mike Bernardo K-1 Grand Prix '98 Final Round Quarter Finals Tokyo, Japan KO (Right overhand) 3 2:35 4-2-2
1998-09-27 Win Rick Roufus K-1 World Grand Prix '98 Opening Round Osaka, Japan KO (Right low kick) 3 0:15 4-1-2
Qualifies for K-1 Grand Prix '98 Final.
1998-07-18 Win Peter Aerts K-1 Dream '98 Nagoya, Japan TKO (Cut Shin) 1 3:00 3-1-2
1998-04-09 Draw Ray Sefo K-1 Kings '98 Yokohama, Japan Decision Draw 5 3:00 3-1-1
1997-11-09 Loss Ernesto Hoost K-1 Grand Prix '97 Final Semi Finals Tokyo, Japan Decision (Majority) 3 3:00 3-1
1997-11-09 Win Sam Greco K-1 Grand Prix '97 Final Quarter Finals Tokyo, Japan KO (Right hook) 1 0:15 3-0
1997-09-07 Win Duane Van Der Merwe K-1 Grand Prix '97 1st Round Osaka, Japan KO (Low kick) 1 2:22 2-0
Qualifies for K-1 Grand Prix '97 Final.
1997-07-20 Win Andy Hug K-1 Dream '97 Nagoya, Japan KO (Right hook) 1 2:37 1-0
Legend: Win Loss Draw/No contest Notes
[edit]



Was he the greatest K1 champion?....NO far from it..............did he represent kyokushin well?....sure he did. Is kyokushin an unbeatable art and is it ggoing to make you a superman if you practice?...NO.and I feel sad that people even consider that childish aproach to any martial art.........Is kyokushin an effective art for stand up fighting and street fights?....YES it is extremaly efficient.
I have the deepest respect for you kakatootoshi for everithing you represent in this forum and for your huge amount of knowledge concerning martial arts, but, please do not bash kyokushin or Filho because he lost to JLB......only people who have the guts to step in the ring lose...those how never lost are the ones that also never acomplished anything because they never took any risks. Many fighters hide behind an past title or hide behind an martial art reputation or behind the "I would kill him if I go for real" attitude and never try to prove their skills..........and Shihan Chiquinho did risk his neck by competing at K1, outside his confort zone, and even now being a kyokushin shihan he is humble enough to try something new and started training BJJ as a white belt (recently he got a blue belt).

Osu

[kakatootoshi]

I am sorry for causing some misunderstanding. The shock in Japan came all about his new world title. On a more positive side he was the first reigning world champion to step into the ring. Other reigning world champions had never been knocked out in the ring like Filho Shihan just because they never stepped into the ring. The other world champions successfully protected the "face" of Kyokushin by getting retired and writing biographies.

Filho Shihan is loved by the Japanese, he was one of the torch bearers at the Nagano Winter Olympics.
One of his nicknames is "The Brown Oyama Masutatsu". The initial discussion was about being inspiring to the Gaijin fighters for being able to win the world title regardless of nationality/race, this aspect "inspiration" of course does not apply to the Japanese.

Filho Shihan was never hated or being put down in Japan for his loss against JLB. He was always cheered by the Japanese when he fought in K-1 (since he represented a Japanese martial art).

The dispersal of "fantasy" of Kyokushin due to propaganda is a good thing and how come you will think negative of it?

Kyokushin without "fantasy" is more precise and moves closer to reality. Does it make sense someone wants to train with an organisation which has never lost in an outside competition. You should be confident in Filho Shihan's achievement and when I said his loss was inspiring to the Japanese, I meant it for real and not in a negative sense.

As for his venture into BJJ, I know since I was the one who first posted it in kyokushin4life.