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[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

On another note - something similar happened in Toronto - please see http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/arti...e-of-a-firearm

That led to the Mayor making some serious remarks - please see http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4429640/

What would the best way to curb such violent misuse of guns be?

[slaine]

All I know is if you take them out of the equation the instances are greatly , sorry vastly , reduced , firearms are illegal in my country not even the police force carry them except for a specislized unit that deals with crimes involving firearms and therefore the evidence is there that crimes involving guns are very very small , don't get me wrong we do have gun crime which is for the most part is tied up with the drug trade where the individuals or gangs involved obtain them illegally and for the most part end up shooting each other ( brilliant ) but the phenomenon of neighbours shooting neighbours or husbands shooting wives or ill deluded people going on a rampage and killing high numbers of inocent people simply doesn't happen because the general population don't have or don't want to have access to firearms . I live in the worst part of my country for gun and violent crimes ( it has even touched my family on several occasions ) but I can guarantee you this if the general public had access to firearms in my part of Dublin city and other parts aswell the weekly death toll would be substantially higher .

[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

Gun Sales Up in US After Aurora Massacre

Read more: http://www.care2.com/causes/gun-sale...#ixzz21irEP4QN

[bobh]

[slaine]

And this is where the paranoia creeps in and the gun stores end up being the winners in a situation where there should be no winners ?

[bobh]

Originally Posted by slaine

And this is where the paranoia creeps in and the gun stores end up being the winners in a situation where there should be no winners ?

Paranoia is present for sure. But not where you might expect. Do yo honestly think we can see trends across the US after such a short time?

Continuing on another note:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr.../violent-crime

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz21jsCVF62

The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609.

[slaine]

Originally Posted by bobh

Paranoia is present for sure. But not where you might expect. Do yo honestly think we can see trends across the US after such a short time?

I don't know Bobh you tell me , my point about paranoia was in reference to AK's submission , but my original point about gun crime still stands , take them out of the hands of ordinary people and the numbers drop and keep dropping , no?

[ashiharakaicho]

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries

Thanks, this is pretty interesting to know that we are not at the top of the violent crimes - but it is a good assumption that crime increases when there is greater joblessness, etc. It has been shown in many countries that the more jobs created, the lesser crime happened. But that could be soft kind too. Violent crimes is another matter.

At one stage, we had more knife injuries than gun wounds - not sure now.

[bobh]

Originally Posted by slaine

I don't know Bobh you tell me , my point about paranoia was in reference to AK's submission , but my original point about gun crime still stands , take them out of the hands of ordinary people and the numbers drop and keep dropping , no?

No. Violence committed on one person by another is not a problem with the weapon. It's difficult for you to even consider the issue because it is not how is seems from across the ocean or through the media. Could that massacre have been prevented if that maniac didn't have weapons? I'll say yes, even if he might have used some other means. But does that apply to society as a whole? I say no. Take a look at violence in your own area of the world. Without guns, the UK should be a mecca of safety from abhorrent violence, but it is not. By contrast, given the huge number of guns here, we should all be wiped out. But this argument is overly simplified just as is yours. But the real studies on human violence point to other more important issues. Maybe we can eliminate more deaths by abuse by removing alcohol in the UK than we can eliminate deaths by lead by removing guns from the US. There's a stronger argument for the former since alcohol also alters the mental state of the user.

If you look at the facts, if you can call statistics kept by the government as facts, to see whether removing guns from Britons reduced deaths and injuries by violent crime. You can also look the the number of automatic weapons per capita in Switzerland to see if existence of these weapons have lead to an increase in deaths.

Unfortunately, it's just not the case. And the real answer to the problem of violence is much more complicated. Per capita, the UK is 400% more violent than the US (grossly taken from those 2009 stats). So what does this mean? That guns would be even more dangerous in the UK? Maybe. But what is the reason? Is it population density, the criminal justice system, schooling, parenting, wealth, poverty, unemployment, alcohol, religion, lack of religion? Is it any of those things? If you can find the answer to personal violence in the UK, then perhaps we can see how that same answer applies in the US.

All that being said, believe it or not, violence in the world is actually declining over the past century. Violence in the US has steadily declined in the US over the past 20 years while laws allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons have been implemented in all but a couple of States in the same time period. Opponents claimed we'd all be shooting each other over parking spaces. But alas, it is not the case. Can you point out tragedies and atrocities committed with guns? Absolutely. Do the numbers match or reflect an increase due to available guns or laws allowing possession and carry? No. They clearly do not. I don't think it is causal in either direction, but everywhere concealed carry is outlawed, crime is generally the highest. Everywhere concealed carry is permitted, crime is lowest.

There is something very scary about weapons... and emotional. But when you look at deaths directly related to drunk driving and their numbers, you don;t see the same outrage at the abundance of alcohol or at the center stage drinking take in our culture. Because those deaths are "an accident" perhaps. Tell that to the abused and beaten spouse or child.

I'm a little all over the place. But dissertations and lifelong work can be put into any of these areas. To think the problems or answers are as simple as can be expressed in a K4L post is nonsensical.

PS. I know Slaine is in Ireland and not the UK. :-P

[slaine]

Originally Posted by bobh

To think the problems or answers are as simple as can be expressed in a K4L post is nonsensical.

Well I'll agree with that part of your statement anyway .

[49ers1970]

Osu! A very sad story.

Just relaying to my past personal experiences:

1. I grew up in Stockton, California. During my senior year in High school,

as an elective, I had to do some volunteer work at Cleveland elementary

school in the Fall of 1987 with children in a P.E class.

On January of 1989, as some of you might know there was the Cleveland

Elementary shooting incident. As I can recall, around 33 people were injured

and 3-4 children were shot and killed. One of the teachers I knew, was

badly injured and survived. The man did the shooting apparently was

a former student their and was believed to be mistreated in some way

at least in his own mind.

2. Fall of 1990 at a dormitory I was staying at as a student of San Jose State

University. In room 308, (a room I stayed at a year earlier), one student

secretly did not like another student. He therefore put a couch in front of

the door and set the couch on fire. A few people suffered minor injuries.

The intended victim's roommate in room 308 upon seeing the fire, jumped

out of the 3rd story building, breaking his back in the process. 2-3 other

people suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns. I believe unofficially these

victims had won a several million dollar lawsuit against the University.

The alleged perpetrator I am sure, but not published in the newspapers

at the time must have served or is serving some serious prison time.

3. Spring 1992: After the Rodney King incident in L.A, there was serious

vandalism and looting of stores at the perimeter of San Jose State

University. A lot of the African American students were beating up

the white students. The police, SWAT team etc. were at full force on

campus as several perpetrators received tear gas treatment and

a few good hits with the Billy Club when necessary. Unfortunately

some of the white victims were hospitalized or even in a comatose state.

As far as the Denver shooting incident. The perpetrator was a medical student.

I was not sure if he was failing in his classes and this is what caused him to leave

medical school. I am sure more details will come up as the weeks and months pass.

However, there is always some patterns in these type of cases.

1. Unresolved issues from past relations with certain people/groups or institutions.

2. Unresolved issues regarding racism and/or a type of prejudice against certain

people

3. The sense that one is being treated as a lesser individual or "the whole world

is against me," attitude.

4. Sometimes in a competitive environment, an individual get so carried away with

being better than everyone else, sometimes jealousy and resentment set in and

acts of desperation take place. (Ej. Texas cheerleader shooting incident,

figure skating incident involving Nancy Kerrigan etc.)

Although it is politically incorrect to talk about racism, prejudice, jealousy etc.

individuals can sometimes pick these inopportune times to express these dark issues

which unfortunately affects a large group of innocent people.

In a certain percentage of these cases, if the individual or group had someone

to talk to openly about their emotional state of mind, perhaps some of these

incidents could have been prevented. However, in other cases like the

Virginia Tech massacre, a few years back, people use to reach out to that

particular student, but that individual was "set" in his own mind to do what

he secretly planned to do and that massacre would have been hard to prevent.

My condolences go out to the victims in the Denver shooting.

Osu!

[slaine]

Your points are very valid and for whatever reasons people have these grievences or dillusions my original simplistic take on it still stands that if you are able to procure high powered (or otherwise) weapons and ammunition so easily and legally as you are in America well then the outcome is there for all to see .

[FredInChina]

That is quite a list you have here 49er...

Why are Caucasian whites and blacks African? Absurd political correctness?

(...) African American students were beating up the white students (...)

Then we have this in the news today:
Police thwart possible attack after phone threats




Osu!

[FredInChina]

Osu!

[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

Just picked this up ...
Seth Horvitz, D.C. Man, Orders Television Online, Gets High-Powered Assault Rifle Delivered

sigh, this is not good at all ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1757309.html