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[polarbearfighter]

This is a question I have recently started to ask myself more often.

I have now trained kyokushin for four years.
I love it and like it a lot but recently I have been thinking that I want a little bit wider perspective. Just because I like kyokushin so much, doesn't mean that I will not like other things that I have not tried yet as much or perhaps even better.
I'd like to try to train for example judo or muay thai for instance.

From a self defence perspective I think I would be much better of with both 5 years of kyokushin and 5 years of judo training, compared to either 10 years of kyokushin or 10 years of judo training.

But for me personally I don't find the self defence part of MA so important.
The things I like about MA are getting challenges, challenging myself, learning new stuff, staying healthy and enjoy every minute of it (ok, if I must be honest, there are occasionally minutes that I don't enjoy).

I want to become better in kyokushin. I am very sure about that.
But there aren't that many things left in the syllabus that I am not familiar with. It seems to be simply matter of showing up and training and make some kind of general improvement.
Of course there are always some new things to learn, especially things that are not in the official syllabus, and I still haven't learnt all the kata and kihon techniques.

I now have 4th kyu (green belt).
I feel that the level of my fighting is noticeably not as good as an average brown belt. It is about the same level as an average green belt and it's noticeably better than an average yellow belt.

I feel that I want to at least get a brown belt and be able to fight at a level that is considered good for a brown belt and have a level of kata that enables me to wear my belt with pride.
I know that if I continue to train as usual as I have done until now, I will reach that level after not that much time (2 years perhaps).
But after that I am not sure if I want to become much better than that.

I am simply not sure that the rate of my improvement at that level is worth the time it requires.
Of course it is fun to train, enjoying the company of my training mates and sweating. It's always fun to kick and punch stuff. But it is more rewarding to notice some improvement.
(one problem is though that the level I describe is very close to black belt, and then it might be very tempting to train a bit more and get a shodan).

If we take a swimmer for example. When he starts training he probably improves his personal best times by several seconds each year during his first years. But then then when he reaches a certain level he has to train for something like 12 times a week to be able to improve his personal best by fractions of a second.
The same is the case for runners and a lot of sports where the progress can be measured.

It sounds much more appealing to me to consistently increase my personal best in swimming (or whatever) by several seconds each year for some period of time, and then learn something new and get reasonably good at that when it becomes harder to notice improvements in swimming.


So what are your opinions on this?
Do you remember having had similar thoughts at some point of your journey?
Is it just a phase I am going through and everyone goes through?

[DrPhil]

I understand what you mean. We always improve faster in the beginning and it may be tempting to do something new where progress is noticeable right away. However, as you say, after 4 years of training you're still far from your full potential. So train 2 more years, but you'll probably feel the same way. If you don't do it already, you can also try tournaments for new challenges.

I think it's great to try something new (I personally recommend Muay Thai) but the risk is to be a "jack of all trades, master of none".

[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

My motto is to be better than the day before. Kancho Ashihara says on page 152 of "Fighting Karate" : " Remember, progress is progress, even if you advance only a milimeter each day. So do a little every day, and KEEP AT IT!" This is about stretching, but similarly it can be applied to anything else.

I always compare the growth of our organisation to "small steps at a time" and in the end you get there.

It is about getting past this plateau and once you've done that, then next one arises.

You are fortunate, you have an instructor. When I left Kyokushin circa 1982 - I only had my dohai and students. That was more tougher to measure progress so I went to train at as many other dojo to compare myself with them.

But perhaps get a training partner and start doing some additional drills at home. Mail me at info@ashiharakarate.org

[KSR]

I can't really say much since you've had some more years of training than I have in martial arts, but I wonder one thing. Could you possibly need a specific focus in terms of your Kyokushin? I ask this because to me, Karate is a large, varied art in terms of what is taught. There is no one, narrow path in it. Other arts and sports have very specific things to work on to become proficient at. What do you what to become proficient at through Kyokushin? You say for sure, "I want to become better in kyokushin, " but what does Kyokushin mean to you? I think if you answer that question for yourself, you might find it easier to see your goal.

For myself, there have been times when I've looked down on what I've achieved as a martial artist, and have thought "what if I had been doing this or that for the same number of years?" But at the end of the day, I always realize a few things. Karate was the art that was most fitting for me at the time I started, it is balanced and lets you get a wide variety of training, and it can make a good foundation because of this. I believe one of the most important things I've learned from Karate is that there is ALWAYS more to learn, and the more you learn, the better you can become. Knowledge is power. This of course, fuels me to want to become the best I can be. But my specific goal right now is to simply become solid, and have a strong foundation in terms of martial arts.

[sandman]

Sounds like you are asking yourself "what's the point?". That's a perfectly legitimate question - one that we all should be asking ourselves. We all have different goals and needs from our martial arts training, and I'm not sure there is one right answer to the question.

[Sanshou_Jae]

You may also find that through cross training your Kyokushin will have greater improvement. Life is about experiment, finding what is good for you and what takes you to your goal.

OSU!!!!

[polarbearfighter]

Osu!
Thanks everyone for your inputs.
Very much appreciated.

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

You are fortunate, you have an instructor. When I left Kyokushin circa 1982 - I only had my dohai and students. That was more tougher to measure progress so I went to train at as many other dojo to compare myself with them.

I don't know how it is best to say this...
But I don't think the path you chose, is a path that would appeal to me.

One thing that you, my shihan, Sosai Oyama and Ashihara have in common is that you first had a phase of your individual development where you learnt as much as you could from your mentors.
Then you left your mentors, went your own path to find a way to continue to improve yourselves on your own, and became mentors yourself and focused on bringing up the next generation of karatekas.
(maybe I am simplifying or assuming too much, but it is at least the rough idea)

I just don't think that that path is for me.
I like the phase where I learn as much as I can from my mentors, and I want to remain in that phase much much much longer.

I think I would enjoy to help with instructing at a dojo sometime, but not to have teaching as my main focus, or have it as my career.

Sounds like you are asking yourself "what's the point?". That's a perfectly legitimate question - one that we all should be asking ourselves. We all have different goals and needs from our martial arts training, and I'm not sure there is one right answer to the question.

When I think more about this, I think I am asking where I am heading and where I want to go.

I can't really say much since you've had some more years of training than I have in martial arts, ...

I have learnt a lot from training mates with lower grades and less experience in martial arts than I have. We are all thinking people with different experiences in life and different perspectives, and there's a lot we can learn from each other.

... What do you what to become proficient at through Kyokushin? You say for sure, "I want to become better in kyokushin, " ...

I tried to explain it a little bit but it is hard to explain it well.
I want to become a better fighter, improve my kata, and in general become more mature as a karateka.
I have role models in my dojo and other dojos I have trained in. I see their strong points and what I can, want and should to improve, and I see what I want to be like.

You may also find that through cross training your Kyokushin will have greater improvement. Life is about experiment, finding what is good for you and what takes you to your goal.

Exactly!
Eventhough I want to try to train something else for some period of time, doesn't mean that I never want to train kyokushin after that.

[FredInChina]

Originally Posted by polarbearfighter

(...) I want to become better in kyokushin. I am very sure about that (...)

I feel that I want to at least get a brown belt and be able to fight at a level that is considered good for a brown belt and have a level of kata that enables me to wear my belt with pride.
I know that if I continue to train as usual as I have done until now, I will reach that level after not that much time (2 years perhaps).
But after that I am not sure if I want to become much better than that.
(...)

Get your black belt, then decide! At that moment, you'll be able to chose to go deeper or to go wider.
Rates of improvement are great, but ego feeding and conducive to a racer mindset.
I personally find it absurd to aim for 1st kyu.

You mention health... with the recent crowd of impaired and crippled I hung about with in Japan, I have strong reservations with using kyokushin (or a derivative) and health in the same sentence...
On the other hand, I've seen high ranks 6-8th dan Goju ryu improve their karate tremendously in a short two years!
We are not talking about spring chicken, but karateka well in their 50es'! Dent & I suspect that changes as simple as a return to the basics of Hojo Undo, a large focus on Sanchin and on working one kata, the same every day in these two years is what led to this leap frogging in their karate.


Osu!

[Shokei Marcsui]

We are not talking about spring chicken, but karateka well in their 50es'! Dent & I suspect that changes as simple as a return to the basics of Hojo Undo, a large focus on Sanchin and on working one kata, the same every day in these two years is what led to this leap frogging in their karate

Seems to be the current philosophy in the weightlifting community too. Pick a handful of exercise and master them. Preferably total body movements.

I do agree less is more, but I suppose you have to learn more to do less more efficiently.

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by polarbearfighter

I don't know how it is best to say this...
But I don't think the path you chose, is a path that would appeal to me.
One thing that you, my shihan, Sosai Oyama and Ashihara have in common is that you first had a phase of your individual development where you learnt as much as you could from your mentors.
Then you left your mentors, went your own path to find a way to continue to improve yourselves on your own, and became mentors yourself and focused on bringing up the next generation of karatekas.
(maybe I am simplifying or assuming too much, but it is at least the rough idea)

Thanks for your feedback but in my case it was not that simple. I left the Kyokushinkai (having trained in that style longer then my first two styles of shotokan followed by shukokai) due to their adherence to the Apartheid system.

I was fortunate that I had an exceptional dohai who shared those years with me and we "crawled" on our own using books/magazines as guides. In December of '84 we connected to Kancho Ashihara and even up until 1993 when I saw him the last time, our/my training with him and or other instructors was minimal due to distance and cost. The little bits we trained under someone was augmented by training in other ryuha, but in Ashihara Karate itself, it was self-training and when the opportunity arose, it was for fixing.

But it does need perseverance and the attitude of knowing what is coming to go through that. Not an easy job - but it is possible.

[FredInChina]

We are not talking about spring chicken, but karateka well in their 50es'! Dent & I suspect that changes as simple as a return to the basics of Hojo Undo, a large focus on Sanchin and on working one kata, the same every day in these two years is what led to this leap frogging in their karate

Originally Posted by Shokei Marcsui

Seems to be the current philosophy in the weightlifting community too. Pick a handful of exercise and master them. Preferably total body movements.

I do agree less is more, but I suppose you have to learn more to do less more efficiently.

Indeed, a "back to basics" approach is cyclical in many arenas; however, as far as GoJuRyu is concerned, and in that case in particular, I believe it is more a return to the origins of karate with the whole system contained in Sanchin + one kata.

It was also applied to seriously high dan grades (6 & up) with wonderful results... I seriously doubt that an advanced powerlifter made to bench only for 2 years would show any result at all.


Osu!