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[dazz]

I was the other day reading about sosai oyama that he studied daito ryu and judo, and I just thought to myself why there aren't any locks and holds and throws in kyokushin, as I am throu trainning trying to develope a one hit one strike knockout defence.

[Martin H]

Take a look at old books. Take a look at the chapters on self defense. There you will get locks and throws enough to satisfy you (along with odd stuff like self defence using a wakingstick or umbrella).

For a newer book, check out Bobby Lowes "Kyokushin karate: Self-defense techniques" from 1999. Also his video from a few years prior "Mas Oyama's Kyokushin Karate Self-Defense Techniques".
Sadly this stuff is not often taught today. It fell into disuse as sport fighting became popular.

[tmd]

As we teach on solid floors we don't often do many throws but take downs and locks as well as releases are in the syllabus so really should be taught as part of your general karate training I'd have thought.

[polarbearfighter]

Didn't Sosai Oyama recommend training Judo?

It makes more sense to me to go and learn judo stuff from someone that is a judo master an specialises in teaching judo rather than learning judo stuff from a karate instructor that is trying to make his dojo a one-stop shop for martial art.

I once tried to train something called ju jitsu kai (traditional japanese ju jitsu I think) for a month or two. It had stand up strikes, standup wrestling, ground wrestling (ne wasa), throws and locks.
I kind of got the feeling that we were heading nowhere and didn't become good at anything and had no particular focus. I also got the feeling that the instructors (black belts) weren't especially good at anything, but neither were they bad at anything.
It was fun though, and I would definitely train that rather than training nothing if I didn't have other options I prefer.

[tmd]

You are right PB it is best to stick to what you know but if you know the bunkai as some instructors do it's all there. I also recommend that students be more flexible/ adventurous in their own training - I used to very much enjoy doing jj along side my karate and at the moment I'm doing some kick-boxing, something I wanted to have another crack at before I'm too old

[Martin H]

If you want to train the most advanced grappling you can, you should always go to a specialist teacher.
However, not everyone can do that, not everyone WANT to look outside of their base art, not everyone wants to learn more than the basics of grappling.

Karate has at its base some rudimentary grappling skills. They fell into disuse when Karate was exported to the Japanese mainland, but it is there if you look for it. Kyokushin has a certain influence from Aikijutsu and judo. It fell into disuse as sparring and competition became popular and took up more time, but it is there if you look for it.

PS. Polarbearfighter. I too did jujutsu kai (and it is not a trad jujutsu style. It is a recreation from Judo, aikido and some point karate). I took it for a few years side by side with karate. I more or less got the same impression as you, but the skills taught me in jujutsu has been invaluable when trying to make sense of a lot of techniques and moves in kyokushin that just never made realistic sense as striking/blocking techniques -even when they are called striking/blocking techniques. I especially found throwing techniques all over in kata´s. That may be one of the reason I advocate bunkai so much.

I cringe when I see a obvious throw described as a urakento the chest (supposedly strong enough to break bones? Really?) followed by TURNING AWAY from the opponent and punch straight up into the air behind your shoulder (supposedly hitting his chin)followed by a turning jump over a lowkick landing in a crounching stance Xblock (pinan Go). It is a unrealistic overcomplicated explanation for what is obviously a solo representation of a ippon seoinage.

You Tube

Sorry for ranting on.
Pet subject.

Point is, karate has rudimentary skills, and it is a crying shame we do not teach those more often -if only to keep the traditions alive. But if you want to specialize, you need to go to as specialist style dojo.

[tmd]

Osu Martin, it seems like in order to see how much cross over there is within the syllabus you need to have spent some time training in something else? Maybe the general issue is the number of instructors who have only ever trained in one style or even only ever under a single instructor?

[Pelleman]

Originally Posted by Martin H

Sadly this stuff is not often taught today. It fell into disuse as sport fighting became popular.

Shihan Howard Collins do teach self defense and grappling during regular class. Not every class but maybe once a week or so.

[shidokanatlanta]

Throwing and grappling even on an basic level has to be learned from one who's trained in a grappling art. If your instructor has, great. If not, you'll have to go outside the dojo to learn.