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Kyokushin4life Trainings Training Mawashi Geri vs. Thai Roundhouse

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Old 04-17-2010, 05:09 AM   #1
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Mawashi Geri vs. Thai Roundhouse

Basically what I'm asking is, how are you guys who take up Kyokushin, Enshin, Ashihara, Seido, ect. taught to throw the Mawashi Geri?? For the most part when i look at it it looks similar to a Muay Thai roundhouse, but there are features that are distinctively different between the two...and frankly i can't seem to figure out what it is. But when someone throws a Mawashi Geri, you can tell it's a MAwashi Geri and that are from some kind of Karate background and when when someone throw's a Thai roundhouse you can tell it's a Thai roundhouse...I can't seem to figure it out. So if someone can shed some light on this it would be great! It's been a very very long time since i was taking up Kyokushin and with all the Muay Thai training it's really slipped out of my head =/...
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:22 AM   #2
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This is a good thread. To answer you question: The karate style roundhouse kick is, for the most part, more technical. You raise your knee and point it at your target (low, middle, or high). You spring from your toe and as the lower leg extends outward the hip rotates over. the supporting foot turns out, and the "kicking arm" swings down for more power generation. Then the kick retracts 2x as fast as it went out, returning first to the chambered position with the knee bent, and then down to the ground. It's a four point move: knee points with toes pointed, extend lower leg and rotate hip, retract lower leg to the first position, and then down.
The thai style they swing from the hip flexor. The leg acts like a baseball bat while the karate style acts like a whip.
The thais spring off the kicking foot as well as the supporting foot. The hip turns over as the supporting foot turns back and the kicking arm swings down. Then they follow through with the kick. Generally, if they miss the kick they spin themselves around, or the leg gets caught. Some fighters train to retract the leg quickly, though. This retraction comes from the hip flexors again, and not from the knee like a karate round house.
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:34 AM   #3
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Great explanation MedGuy, one of the best - Repped.

...I am now wondering what I have been doing so far ... Not a mawashi & not a Thai roundhouse either.

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Old 04-17-2010, 05:41 AM   #4
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I disagree that one is more technical then the other. The karate mawashi geri is more of a snap whereas the Thai dtae isn't is the main and easiest difference to tell the two techniques apart.

A proper dtae can be just as technical as a mawashi geri, and vice versa. In my experience, anyway.

A problem I see with MMA gyms that dabble in muay thai often is that when they throw a dtae they just come straight across or "up". Never chop the kick down, never work the other angles, never "loy", and so forth. Think of your shin being completely across your opponent's stomach and rib cage area of their torso with the end step or foot at the end. Probably doing a crappy job of explaining this but the best way I can think of right now.

A "loy" is thrusting your hip out like a knee and sliding on the supporting foot but at the end pushing your shin out so you strike with your shin instead of the knee.

I like mawashi geri and dtae, they both have their place. I'd like to see more of the chudan chosoku mawashi geri variations used because I think those are very effective. The same way I think the different variations of the tiiip (push kick) are, as well.

I mean no disrespect to you Medguy, because I know you have eons of experience but it's just my opinion. One thing I'd like to point out is that a lot of the experienced Thai nak muay do not spin all the way around (360) if they miss the kick. They stress not doing this at most camps I've trained. They stop at the "180" mark if they miss and retract their leg back or follow up with a tiip/push kick of some sort, etc.

First time I ever trained with Thai trainers I had the bad habit of doing a 360 and would when I shadow boxed because I had seen others do it in movies, video games, etc. but the Arjarn I was with yelled at me immediately to stop that out of risk of getting KO'd when I turn my back on an opponent. Just my opinion and experience
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:44 AM   #5
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Yup Medguy nails that one.

I have spared with MMA guys that do Muay Thai round and its exactly as Medguy describes it. In Enshin it is exactly as the first one he describes.
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:08 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medguy View Post
The thai style they swing from the hip flexor. The leg acts like a baseball bat while the karate style acts like a whip.
Ahh! So there is a snap into it! I see, yeah for some reason i was thinking that the full contact styles had the same "kick through" mentality that the Muay Thai guys have. I've noticed the same with the punches as well, You can tell the difference between a karateka and a none karateka, their punches seem to have more of an arch in em.

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Originally Posted by powerof0ne View Post
I disagree that one is more technical then the other. The karate mawashi geri is more of a snap whereas the Thai dtae isn't is the main and easiest to tell the two techniques apart. [continued]
Awesome! Thanks for that!

Moderator note: Please try to avoid making consecutive posts - use the "multi quote" function. Also, try to quote only what is relevant to your reply. Thanks! ~ Nix
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Old 04-17-2010, 10:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyokushin2GnP View Post
Ahh! So there is a snap into it! I see, yeah for some reason i was thinking that the full contact styles had the same "kick through" mentality that the Muay Thai guys have.
I believe that the mawashi geri is taught a little bit different in Ashihara from Kyokushin, but I've always been taught to kick through the opponent. Not all the way through, so you have your back to your opponent, but the knee should cross your centre line, else there will be little impact. Another thing that is taught in Ashihara, is that the kick should be chambered to the side, and travel horizontally into the target in order to transfer the most force into it.

I agree with the snap, but it needs some elaboration. It's not a snap kick like in Savate or no-contact karate or even kinteki geri, but emphasis is on proper chambering and re-chambering, whereas Muay Thai seems to just rotate their body and drive the whole leg into the opponent without chambering, often in an upward angle (at least that's my impression from my limited MT experience).

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Originally Posted by Kyokushin2GnP View Post
I've noticed the same with the punches as well, You can tell the difference between a karateka and a none karateka, their punches seem to have more of an arch in em.
Yes. Elbows should be tucked in, and the strike should travel in a straight line. This is not unique to karate of course, it's taught in most striking arts.
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Old 04-17-2010, 12:37 PM   #8
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I think the two kicks have been explained well in this thread.
However there are a couple of points I'd like to address. The Muay Thai kicking style makes use of coming up on the ball of the supporting foot. This isn't such a big deal in Kyokushin and similar offshoots but in many traditional karate styles this is strictly a no no. They want the heal down for everything, but his affects distancing (extension/reach) as well as not activating the calf muscle (more power).
One of the important differences already noted is the chamber and re-chambering of the kick in karate.
Something that has to be taken into consideration in a lot of karate styles is that over time stylization has taken hold. To make the lines a bit more clean and pretty new rules were added as time went on; some of which had no bearing on effectiveness but just cleaned things up a bit for kata and show. Deeper chambers, parallel to the floor, clean returns, returning to a neat stance, getting the knee to a specific height etc.

Muay Thai has a few different angles at which they throw the round kick. When they chop down for instance it helps in getting the leg free should it be grabbed by turning away and sort of doing a front kick downward pulling the leg free. The downward round kick kick comes over the blocking arm too when you attack with it. Each kick has its place. As PowerofOne pointed out he sees MMA not making use of these kicks properly. I would tend to agree with him that many MMA students are learning half assed MT techniques but that is ok because MMA techniques are pretty much hybrids anyway. They have to be.

In MMA you can't use strict wrestling stances or boxing stances or karate stances or karate kicks or Muay Thai kicks or Boxing punches such as close punches, etc. Everything has to be modified and in many cases tweaked to fit an ever changing environment. There is too much going on in an MMA match and certain things can leave you in danger of getting taken down for a standup fighter or in the case of a grappler, hit. You always have to account for these things and distances to deal with defending them.

At this stage of the game for me, I don't like to look at kicks or techniques with a style attached. Rather I like to look at the principles behind them (they are all very similar) and just say, "I like that kick." Then I fit it to me and use it how it works for me based on the "principles" involved. No names or labels.
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Old 04-17-2010, 03:06 PM   #9
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Talking



Godai,

Much like Bruce Lee in his last few years

"A punch is just a punch,A kick is just a kick"

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Old 04-17-2010, 05:47 PM   #10
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One of the other karateka at my dojo trained in Muay Thai for a couple of years, and when we're doing pad work together he finds mawashi geri very natural, as he says that our style of Kyokushin teaches you to go through the opponent's leg just the same way they did when he trained in Muay Thai. As it was pointed out before though, we're not supposed to go through to the point that our back is turned to our opponent, but our knee should past our center line to provide effective force.
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:52 PM   #11
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Aye, I'm not saying one way is better then the other. I still do a karate mawashi geri and a muay thai dtae and at least a dozen different ways in each art that I have seen.

Honestly, the karate mawashi geri was EASIER for ME to learn then the muay thai dtae. When I teach students the muay thai way I go to great lengths to break it down so they don't do a sloppy way of doing it which I see too often. Maybe that's because I came from karate into muay thai?

Chambering kicks looks nice but I don't think it's necessary in kumite and also telegraphs unless that is, you're tricky I'm sure more then a few of you are, too.
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Old 04-17-2010, 05:52 PM   #12
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Kyokushin has adapted a few things from Muay Thai. I have heard at least one reference to Kyokushin being "Muay Thai in a gi."
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godai View Post
I think the two kicks have been explained well in this thread.
However there are a couple of points I'd like to address. The Muay Thai kicking style makes use of coming up on the ball of the supporting foot. This isn't such a big deal in Kyokushin and similar offshoots but in many traditional karate styles this is strictly a no no. They want the heal down for everything, but his affects distancing (extension/reach) as well as not activating the calf muscle (more power).
One of the important differences already noted is the chamber and re-chambering of the kick in karate.
Something that has to be taken into consideration in a lot of karate styles is that over time stylization has taken hold. To make the lines a bit more clean and pretty new rules were added as time went on; some of which had no bearing on effectiveness but just cleaned things up a bit for kata and show. Deeper chambers, parallel to the floor, clean returns, returning to a neat stance, getting the knee to a specific height etc.

Muay Thai has a few different angles at which they throw the round kick. When they chop down for instance it helps in getting the leg free should it be grabbed by turning away and sort of doing a front kick downward pulling the leg free. The downward round kick kick comes over the blocking arm too when you attack with it. Each kick has its place. As PowerofOne pointed out he sees MMA not making use of these kicks properly. I would tend to agree with him that many MMA students are learning half assed MT techniques but that is ok because MMA techniques are pretty much hybrids anyway. They have to be.

In MMA you can't use strict wrestling stances or boxing stances or karate stances or karate kicks or Muay Thai kicks or Boxing punches such as close punches, etc. Everything has to be modified and in many cases tweaked to fit an ever changing environment. There is too much going on in an MMA match and certain things can leave you in danger of getting taken down for a standup fighter or in the case of a grappler, hit. You always have to account for these things and distances to deal with defending them.

At this stage of the game for me, I don't like to look at kicks or techniques with a style attached. Rather I like to look at the principles behind them (they are all very similar) and just say, "I like that kick." Then I fit it to me and use it how it works for me based on the "principles" involved. No names or labels.
Awesome! Yeah i just noticed that there is a lot of chamber with the kicks from Karateka. It really stuck out when i watched Andy Hug fight Cro Cop.
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:31 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nix View Post
I believe that the mawashi geri is taught a little bit different in Ashihara from Kyokushin, but I've always been taught to kick through the opponent. Not all the way through, so you have your back to your opponent, but the knee should cross your centre line, else there will be little impact. Another thing that is taught in Ashihara, is that the kick should be chambered to the side, and travel horizontally into the target in order to transfer the most force into it.

I agree with the snap, but it needs some elaboration. It's not a snap kick like in Savate or no-contact karate or even kinteki geri, but emphasis is on proper chambering and re-chambering, whereas Muay Thai seems to just rotate their body and drive the whole leg into the opponent without chambering, often in an upward angle (at least that's my impression from my limited MT experience).

Yes. Elbows should be tucked in, and the strike should travel in a straight line. This is not unique to karate of course, it's taught in most striking arts.

oh, i see...so the mawashi geri varies from style to style, kinda huh? Cool cool.

With the punches, i noted it because I've seen a lot of Enshin and Ashihara guys throw their punches with somewhat of an arch, even a lot of Kyokushin and Seido guys in K-1.


- I noticed it a lot in this video when the guy was throwing combinations on the bag
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Old 04-17-2010, 06:44 PM   #15
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Nice clip!
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Old 04-17-2010, 07:36 PM   #16
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Nice clip!
yeah it's awesome!
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Old 04-17-2010, 10:20 PM   #17
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the karate kick focuses on power from the snapping the kick and the thai kick focuses on power from the swing of the kick. from my experiences in shidokan tournaments i found the the following: 1) if kicking in a gi, i prefer snapping kicks. 2) thai kicks in pants are easier to grab (pant leg). in mma, only turn the kicks (fully rotate the hips) over when the opponent is off balance or going back.
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Old 04-18-2010, 12:49 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Aye, I'm not saying one way is better then the other. I still do a karate mawashi geri and a muay thai dtae and at least a dozen different ways in each art that I have seen.

Honestly, the karate mawashi geri was EASIER for ME to learn then the muay thai dtae. When I teach students the muay thai way I go to great lengths to break it down so they don't do a sloppy way of doing it which I see too often. Maybe that's because I came from karate into muay thai?

Chambering kicks looks nice but I don't think it's necessary in kumite and also telegraphs unless that is, you're tricky I'm sure more then a few of you are, too.
Osu!
I also really think mawashi geri is easier you can teach much quicker raise knee to the side turn snap the leg while blah blah. The thai kick you first have to get someone to start turning on the ball of the supporting foot moving the heel in the kicking direction while turning your hips etc etc the point is you have to get the turn at the begining of the kick before learning the kick and it takes a while before you start putting power into it.
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Old 04-18-2010, 01:14 AM   #19
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When teaching my beginners, I have them do "rebound drills" on the heavy bag first. This is a great exercise for strengthening the legs, developing rhythm, feeling the retraction of the kick, and learning proper placement of the shin on the target.

If you are not familiar with this, it goes like this:

(keep in mind that we use 140 lbs bags. If you have a 60 lbs bag or so it won't work)

kicking shin lays onto the bag perpendicular to it, parallel with the ground. Supporting foot turns 180 degrees. Push into the bag with your kicking leg and the kinetic energy forces your leg back. Allow the weight of the bag to "boing" your leg back behind you so you are back in your original stance. Then repeat with the alternate leg.

If done incorrectly, you will press the bag or simply place your shin against it and then drop it down in front of you--or you will kick the bag. Also, the supporting foot MUST face behind you in order to engage the hip.

At any rate, I have my beginners do several rounds of rebound drills on the bag. then I have them do the same drill on the arm shields. I make sure that they pay attention to the position of their supporting foot and that their kicking shin is parallel with the ground. From there we work into laying a bit more power onto the bag keeping those basic ideas of the rebound drills, and then work from there.
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Old 04-18-2010, 01:32 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfighter View Post
I also really think mawashi geri is easier you can teach much quicker raise knee to the side turn snap the leg while blah blah. The thai kick you first have to get someone to start turning on the ball of the supporting foot moving the heel in the kicking direction while turning your hips etc etc the point is you have to get the turn at the begining of the kick before learning the kick and it takes a while before you start putting power into it.
Yup, it seems "the pivot" is hard for a lot of people to understand. You pivot so much and put your hip flexor into it so much that your supporting leg heel should almost practically be pointing at your target at maximum effectiveness.

When I teach how to dtae I dumb it down as much as possible, even do an excercise more or less just pivoting and raising the kicking leg up a little bit over and over very fast. Also a good work out on the calf muscle .

When you get this down you can do a lead kick dtae without having to "switch stance" kick. Don't get me wrong, the switch stance kick has it's place and can be hidden with a simple "1 2" combination and to further confuse the opponent when you do this together fast and they don't know what you're doing. However, a lead dtae (or mawashi geri) to the neck is much faster then a switch kick. Just different tools and tactics to keep in mind for different scenarios...
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