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[JWU]

First of all yes I have been posting many questions recently but Im a fact finder tpe, so like to get all the info before comitting to anything. Just in case anyone thought I was being a moron.

anyway...I was thinking what the droput rate of students is. I was talking with others about this and we came up with some approx figures . From our experiences on average about 10% (1 in every 10) of those that start go through to 5th or 4th Kyu. Shodan is even lower , maybe 5% max.

Of course these are only from our experiences , so I was thinking how many peole really do go through to Shodan? I imagine in some schools 1 shodan must represent 500+ students that have come through the door and dropped out.

Do these figures seem accuarte from your experiences?

[Nix]

More or less. It would require extensive research to get an accurate number, and it would vary greatly from school to school.

In our original class of sixteen students, ten years ago, four are still practising. None are black belts, though two are 1. kyu and hope to grade this summer. Our class was a bit out of the ordinary, because we were much smaller than other beginner classes. The class before us were much larger, but I think only one is left.

Our school has existed for nearly fourty years, and has produced fifty black belts. If we estimate that we get an average of fifty new students a year (I think the actual average is closer to the double), we can say that approximately 2.5% of the students eventually achieved shodan.

By the way, forgive me for being snooty, but how is this information helping you to decide whether or not to start or not? The ultimate answer to all this is, go see for yourself. If you enjoy the class, stick with it. If not, try something else.

[JWU]

???? this has no impact on my joining . This was just purely out of interest to see what others had encountered and how much it varied or was simialr to what me and others were discussing the other day.

[Nix]

Oh, I see. I thought you were still weighing pros and cons. My apologies.

[kakatootoshi]

Originally Posted by JWU

First of all yes I have been posting many questions recently but Im a fact finder tpe, so like to get all the info before comitting to anything. Just in case anyone thought I was being a moron.

Originally Posted by JWU

???? this has no impact on my joining . This was just purely out of interest to see what others had encountered and how much it varied or was simialr to what me and others were discussing the other day.

Sorry but I do not get what you mean by "getting the info before committing"? Or do you mean that you have decided to commit but just want to know more extra information? Yes I too notice that you have been asking many questions but I do not think you are a moron. But just one friendly advise, many if not most of the folks here would more welcome questions that are more centered around the core of training. Well I cannot and do not have time to argue with you what questions you should or should not ask. In another thread you were given some harsh comments by another member and I can guarantee you that his thoughts were not complete unwarranted. In case you do not know, recently or not so recently there are many new people asking unthoughtful questions and never show a willingless to train. The friendliness of the members have made them entertain these people's needs for a while but at the end everyone was having a hard time and become unhappy. If you think you have been treated with not the kind of hospitiality you have expected please understand that nothing is personal against you, there is history and culture here that you are not aware of.

Originally Posted by Nix

By the way, forgive me for being snooty, but how is this information helping you to decide whether or not to start or not? The ultimate answer to all this is, go see for yourself. If you enjoy the class, stick with it. If not, try something else.

Originally Posted by Nix

Oh, I see. I thought you were still weighing pros and cons. My apologies.

I share the same thoughts and if you need to apologize, I too may need to.

[senshido]

maybe 5% max

yes for every 10 that start half of one make it to shodan

[Bardock]

^_^
Let's see.. Our club.. We've had around 200 members.. And we have two who've reached shodan..

[WYKKO]

Interesting thread. I wish I had kept better metrics over the years...

In the past 10 years, I've averaged 50 students per quarter (200 per year * 10 = 2000)

Of that 2000, I know that at least 50 got a shodan.

Of that 50, 10 have received a nidan.

Of that 10, 4 have received a sandan (hopefully I will be up to 5 after the summer).

4/2000 = 1:500 stays in long enough to get a sandan.

Not too bad. As far as beginners go, if I get 10 new people, 6 will quit within the first month. Of the remaining 4 only 1 will probably test past a 6th kyu.

In a lot of ways, I feel that my program is a tough sell. Under our style's normal testing schedule, it takes about 3 years to get to shodan. Our dojo is on a longer testing cycle so it takes a minimum of 3.5 years. That's a huge investment of time.After calling and asking I've found that most of the private studios from other styles promise you a black belt in 12 - 16 months.

[senshido]

Our dojo is on a longer testing cycle so it takes a minimum of 3.5 years

wow! that is very quick by my standards, it would take my students an absolute minimum of 5 years to reach shodan, most would take more than 6 years

[WYKKO]

Originally Posted by senshido

wow! that is very quick by my standards, it would take my students an absolute minimum of 5 years to reach shodan, most would take more than 6 years

Really?! That's quite a committment as well. What's your drop out rate after shodan?

[senshido]

Originally Posted by WYKKO

Really?! That's quite a committment as well. What's your drop out rate after shodan?

I have a zero drop out rate after shodan (so far), all my shodans are still with me,
having said that I have only had my own students since 2001, previously I taught for another organization.

I have in the past had to ask a shodan to leave due to poor attitude, but this was a shodan that came from another organization, not one of my own.

[Dent]

Osu!

I echo Senshido on this one. 3.5 years is a pretty good speed to Shodan, and I don't know of anyone outside of Japan that has made that kind of progress.

As for 12-16 months, unless they are Uchi Deshi, living in the Dojo and doing the full program, and even then I think it takes time to get the training into the body...

"The Martial Way begins with one thousand days and is mastered after ten thousand days of training." Sosai Mas Oyama - 11 Mottos.

Osu!

[Godai]

When I was coming up the belts were white, yellow, blue, purple, brown and black. Brown belt was 3rd, 2nd and 1st kyu. It generally took 2 years just to get through brown belt. I know that some of the branch dojo still retain the old ways and it takes an average of 5 years to BB. Figuring around 6 months between testing, 4.5-5 years seems average for a student that moves at a decent rate and trains often. Average in the students that are a little below par and you are moving to 5 years and sometimes more.

[senshido]

yes, my time scales sound about the same, we start at 10th kyu, i notice some start at 8th kyu. From 2nd kyu to 1st kyu is a minimum time of a year and from 1st kyu to 1st dan is the same, so you are looking at 2 years just for the last two grades to shodan

[WYKKO]

We start at White belt and then people test to 10th kyu (basics). Most adults skip to 8th kyu from there up to 1st kyu. Here is our system.

White
10th White w/yellow stripe
9th (Yellow) - for kids under 10 who can't do one of the basic forms.
8th (Yellow w/one black stripe)
7th (Yellow w/two black stripes)
6th (Blue w/one black stripe)
5th (Blue w/two black stripes)
4th (Green w/one black stripe)
3rd (Green w/two black stripes)
2nd (Brown w/one black stripe)
1st (Brown w/two black stripes)

Testing at our dojo is every 4 months. There is a 6 month gap between 1st kyu and Shodan. Black Belt testings are held 3 times per year. Winter, Summer, and Autumn.

We used to only have White, Yellow, Green, and Brown kyu belts.
White
Yellow(up to two stripes)
Green (up to three stripes)
Brown (up to three stripes)

Our Grandmaster added the blue belt because he had a lot of people dropping out after the 2nd green belt. He said that students didn't feel motivated because their belt wasn't changing. At the time, my arguement was "good riddance", but I was only a 1st year instructor and hadn't realized the importance of retention.

[Hangtime]

Originally Posted by WYKKO

hopefully I will be up to 5 after the summer

Who's number 5?

Originally Posted by WYKKO

Our dojo is on a longer testing cycle so it takes a minimum of 3.5 years.

Seriously? That's a serious question, btw. I made it in 3.5, with a full year out...?

Originally Posted by senshido

wow! that is very quick by my standards, it would take my students an absolute minimum of 5 years to reach shodan, most would take more than 6 years

Wow, that is a serious commitment. I wouldn't mind it, I'd still bide my time and get there, but....

[Nix]

This has already been discussed extensively in previous threads. Here are some examples:

Belt systems in your style
Average time for shodan

Please try to stay on topic.

[ashiharakaicho]

Osu,

The following is an excerpt from our Operations Manual, with this section was written by Gary Gabelhouse, an Okinawan Goju Ryu stylist based in Lincoln, Nebraska and author of some books.

An article based on a nationwide (USA), market-research study
In business, it is typical for a new sale to “cost” anywhere from 25%-40% of the contract or product’s sale price. This is a standard business concept referred to as Cost of Sale. So, if you sell a $100,000 contract, it is likely your company has invested between $25,000 and $40,000 in making that sale—salaries for sales people, travel for sales people, marketing and advertising support and materials, etc. In light of that business reality, it stands to reason that if a business can maintain those customers and clients, the cost of sale is significantly reduced, allowing the enterprise higher profits and earnings. Hence, the most profitable business is not necessarily the one that sells the most. The most profitable business is likely to be the one that retains the most clients for the longest period of time.

How is this concept relevant to a dojo? New dues payments are necessary and good, but the challenge is to build that client base of budoka so that you retain a growing level of financial support of the dojo. Many dojo owners and head instructors feel the art itself, as it is taught by the Sensei, and the character and quality of instruction of the Sensei are the reasons why students sign up AND stay at the dojo. I contend this is not altogether true.

Let us consider the art, the curriculum, the teaching ability and character of the Sensei to be the elements of a dojo’s quality. Many Sensei believe that if the dojo’s quality is good, the student will stay and continue their training at the dojo—if it isn’t they’ll go somewhere else, or quit altogether. However, I contend the dojo’s quality may or may not have anything to do with why people quit going to a dojo. From an objective view, I believe that our dojo has incredible quality—yet, we see students come and go. In fact, they leave the dojo in the face of quality they acknowledge themselves! Yet, they leave all the same.

So, in our dojo we conduct the equivalent of an exit interview—and question the student who leaves (when possible) as to why they left. This gives us some insight if there IS a problem with an element of our dojo’s quality. Sometimes we have been fortunate to spot a problem and fix it, the student coming back to the dojo. As an example: A seemingly dedicated new student suddenly quit coming to the dojo. We called her and asked about why she was no longer training. We were told that a male student had, outside of the dojo, come on to her and that made her feel extremely uncomfortable in the dojo. We talked with her about what should be done, and then addressed the problem, communicating back to her what actions we took and what
assurances were in place. She came back and continues to train. I recommend all dojo conduct such exit interviews and continually build and enhance their dojo’s quality.

In talking with Chris Caile-Sensei, we bemoaned the churn rate of dojo and mused aloud about the reasons why people quit training. I contended that I believed many students quit the martial arts for reasons that really don’t have much, if anything to do with dojo’s quality. After discussing this at some length, both of us decided that my company, Fairfield Research, Inc. (now sold) would perform a national study and determine not only the size of the martial arts market, but also, why one-time budoka . . . quit.

In the study, we contacted via telephone, 1,000 adult, heads of household. We asked if they had ever trained or took martial arts classes of any kind—including Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Karate, or one of the many other styles of martial arts? Twenty-one percent (21%) of the study respondents—equivalent to 19.8 million adults—cited they had taken formal martial arts classes.

When asked if they were still training and taking martial arts classes, only 2.8% stated they were—equivalent to 2.7 million adult budoka in America. We assessed the number of household members (children) who were still training and projected there to be 3.0 million youth budoka. Hence, the total size of the American martial-arts market (those taking formal classes/training) is 5.7 million budoka.

At this point in time, 86% of the students who have gone into an American dojo . . . have quit. We asked those who had quit training, “What one reason was the most important in your decision to quit the martial arts?” The open-ended answers we received were coded into a number of response categories. The following were the results from this nationwide study:

Reason Why Quit % Of Quitters
Personal & Job Time Constraints 31%
Moved Away From Dojo 23%
Just Lost Interest 18%
Injury/Medical Problem 13%
Classes Ran Their Term 8%
Finances/Cost of Classes 7%

So, what does this tell us? The study results prove a majority (54% conservatively) of the reasons why students quit are beyond the control of the Sensei, or dojo owner.
The Sensei cannot manage their students’ personal and job schedule for them. Given how we train, and given the nature of it being necessary to train at a dojo, under a Sensei, they either make the time, or don’t make the time. The Sensei would not likely retain students by allowing for only individual home study via videos, etc., and this would be counter to the student/Sensei paradigm. The Sensei cannot control or impact the business hours or family time of his or her students—and, in my opinion, should not.

Also, how can the Sensei control or impact their students’ moving to accept better jobs, or moving to be with their spouses? They cannot. Yet, nearly one-quarter (23%) of those who quit training do so for this reason. Arguably, the Sensei CAN control how interesting his or her training is to the student. This 18% quit rate could be construed as a result of poor dojo quality—or poor quality of instruction/curriculum. One can, from these results, contend that nearly two of every ten quitters leave a dojo due to a learning experience that did not interest them enough to stay.

We all, as Sensei and dojo owners, hate to see our students injured in their training. Regrettably, injury is a part of martial arts training—regardless of our safety consciousness. In my first three months of training I broke a rib and two toes. It just happened—not due to a lack of safety consciousness, but just due to my bad luck. However, I have attended dojo that seem to even flaunt the injuries of their students as badges of tenacity and intensive training. This misplaced macho attitude is ridiculous. Think of the potential budoka that are lost to the arts as they pass
through these meat-market dojo.

As Sensei and dojo owners, we can lessen this cause for student resignation by making sure safety measures are in place and understood by all. For example, in our dojo there is no freesparring prior to or after class unless the sensei on the floor grants permission. Also, weapons use must be permitted, verbally, by the Sensei on the floor. These are safety policies that lessen the chance for injury to students who do not yet have control of their technique.

As to the physicality of classes, Sensei and dojo owners must, in my opinion, consciously provide classes to their students that are variable and personalised with regard to severity. The quality Sensei can push all students to their individual limits—without injury. Also, it is a good dojo policy that all students apprise the Sensei of any injury or health problem that may limit their training. With the proper safety policies in place at the dojo, and with quality instruction, alll students, regardless of physical condition, should be able to safely train to the limits of their ability—pushing and increasing those limits through continued training.

From the study results, it appears that roughly one-in-ten students (8%) quit because of the structure of the class. For example, some students may take a Tai Chi class at college and learn the 28 form. Then they know it, and after the class ends, they may or may not train it. Regardless, they do not continue to take further martial arts classes. They quit. I find it encouraging that finances get in the way with such a small number of would-be budoka. While dojo fees being un-affordable did account for the reason why 7% of the quitters quit, the Sensei or dojo owner must keep an eye on his or her fees. In our dojo, for example, we have resisted raising dues but increased our revenues through seminars and special events. Dues, and dues structuring IS something in the control of the Sensei or business manager. Yet, it appears that dues being too high is not nearly as problematic when compared to other factors.

[smoothsake]

From what I hear 1 out of 100, or 1%, make shodan.

From what I've seen, more than half of white belts never grade at all and quit. The ones that make it to lets say 8kyu stick around.

But what does this have anything to do with joining a dojo? Zilch.

[Dent]

Osu!

Thank you for the information, especially considering it's thorough nature. None of us could accomplish this without huge time resources.

Repped.

Osu!