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[dunknballer21]

I am a beginning practitioner of Kyokushin Karate. And before I started, I read up on all that I could about Kyokushin, and I was really gung-ho about starting. That was until I saw Matsui's "100 man kumite" on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopqMm14XMw

There are a few things that disturbed me after watching the clip. But I'll start with the biggest.

At around 3:12 into the clip, you will see Kancho Matsui closeline his opponent down with his forearm. And a couple seconds later, Matsui throws a kick to the head of his downed opponent while walking away.

These are clearly against the rules of Kyokushin sparring even in kumite. And it goes against the very spirit of karate and budo. It's disgraceful to see the head of Kyokushin act is such a way.

I've posted a comment about this on the YouTube site, but no one has come up with any excuses for Matsui. Indeed, I think his actions are inexcusable. Just because he was frustrated by one opponent does not mean that he can disgrace the name of Kyokushin like that.

A few other things I noticed that are disturbing:

1) Almost all of his opponents (out of reverance or fear) do not seem to be trying to fight him seriously. They hesitate and then throw one half-hearted kick which Kancho Matsui easily counters. If all 100 man kumite's are like that, I have confidence in taking it right now. But I know it's not. Because I have seen clips of other fighters' kumites. Matsui's opponents are laying down for him.

2) Kancho Matsui shows no leniency and respect towards his opponents (especially those that are smaller than him). It is my understanding that if I spar a lower level student or someone who is physically smaller and weaker than me, then I am not going to go full out and try to knock them out. I would work more on technique and pull some of my hits out of respect for my sparring partner/opponent. In the video clip, Kancho Matsui can be seen knocking the block off of an opponent who is clearly a child (his head barely reaches Kancho Matsui's chest). But instead of showing respect and some class, he roundhouse kicks the kid in the head as hard as he can. This is another disgraceful act in my opinion. We don't train to be bullies or thugs. We have respect towards our fellow man, especially our fellow practitioners. Kancho Matsui shows no mercy.

3) Kancho Matsui's techniques are terrible. In the clip, Kancho Matsui had two main techniques he had for "knocking down" his opponents. One was to grab the kicking leg and sweep the leg that they are standing on. And two was to simply grab his opponent and push him down. Again, it is my understanding from the training I've received and witnessed and the other competition footage that I've seen that there are certain rules against grabbing an opponent. The standard counter to a high roundhouse kick thrown by an opponent is to sweep the leg that he is standing on. But you're not allowed to grab the kicking leg. In several competition films, it can be clearly seen that the ref breaks up the fighters whenever one fighter grabs another's kicking leg. But in the clip of Matsui's kumite, you can see Matsui repeatedly "knock-down" his opponents by grabbing their kicking leg and pushing them over. The ref does nothing to stop this.

A 100 man kumite is supposed to test the fighter's abilities, spirit, and will. From the clip shown, it is my opinion that Kancho Matsui failed in all three. In fact, he disgraced the name of Kyokushin with his antics.

Lines removed due to Political Arguements, this is not a forum to start a flame war.

It is sad, but I am now having doubts about the art I had so much passion for because of this one man.

Perhaps you can explain to me where I am erring and how Kancho Matsui's actions are justifiable. Thanks.

Osu.

[kyokushin4life]

Welcome on board,
You are a student in IKO1, he is your Kancho. You shouldn't just call him sir name.
I have to edit a few lines of your post.

[dunknballer21]

My mistake. Thanks for correcting it.

[kyokushin4life]

Originally Posted by dunknballer21

My mistake. Thanks for correcting it.

Osu! dunknballer21 san, no worries. I edited the title as well since the title goes to the main page of the site. It;s not good.
Kancho Matsui was fighting in 80's, this also means that the fighting style was slightly different as himself has mentioned in one of his DVDs. Kyokushin style is changing..
The 100 men kumite didn't disappoint me, it was my very first time watching the kancho fighting. I was quite impressed with his joudan mawashigeris.
ill add more lines later as I have to go out. Osu!

[ojgsxr6]

Is Matsui really a Kancho? Isn't that title usually reserved for people who start their own styles as opposed to being appointed head of an organization ie Soke?

[Aunty Ichigeki]

Sorry, can't resist expressing an opinion...

Originally Posted by dunknballer21

At around 3:12 into the clip, you will see Kancho Matsui closeline his opponent down with his forearm. And a couple seconds later, Matsui throws a kick to the head of his downed opponent while walking away.

Clothesline? Are we talking about the same clip? I saw the opponent pushing/shoulder barging and Kancho slipping slideways & 'helping' the guy fall under his own weight & momentum. Nice. The kick was a non-event IMO, particularly in that era.

Almost all of his opponents (out of reverance or fear) do not seem to be trying to fight him seriously... Matsui's opponents are laying down for him.

My understanding is that Kancho was so far ahead of anybody at the time in terms of technique and particularly timing that his opponents were doing what they could in the circumstances... not much!

Kancho Matsui shows no leniency and respect towards his opponents

The 100 man kumite is undertaken by invitation only by the very best of Kyokushin practioners. It is not sparring (where you are absolutely right, you should show leniency), it is full contact! The opponents may be small but they are not unqualified for the task and it would be disrespectful to treat any one of them with complacancy.

Kancho Matsui's techniques are terrible.

What tha? Okay the grabbing was a part of Kyokushin at the time. Check out Daisukey's This is Kyokushin clip if you want to see how much the style has evolved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT8D2MOBl5s

It is sad, but I am now having doubts about the art I had so much passion for because of this one man.

I'd suggest the doubt is caused by your own perceptions. In my experience the first thing you should doubt when forming opinions (especially ones that make you sad) are your own perceptions! They're almost always the problem!

[sokaiya]

You'd have to understand the nature of Japanese people and regards to toughness. You'd have to understand that a man like Matsui, Filho, Andy Hug, Feitosa, Kazumi are of a different class of fighters. I'm not just singling them out but they're the most well known I could give examples of. Training at their levels, you'd understand why Matsui did what he did and you'd understand why it is allowed among them. 100-man kumite is a special event among the toughest. Matsui has to endure 100 fights and some of the senpai's often wait near the end, perfectly fresh to beat on you extra hard. Going hard is endearing respect. I dont understand how him being lenient shows any respect at all.

[dunknballer21]

Yes, as beginning practitioner to Kyokushin, my perception may not be clearest. That is why I posted this to get some responses and try and learn.

Thanks to everyone for their explanation. I can see that the style has changed since then, and I did not put that into consideration. Indeed if the rules were different back then, then I have nothing to complain about. Thank you for helping me out.

Osu.

[spanky11]

I actually kinda agree with some of dunknballer's commenys regarding Matsui's opponents...I have heard from many sources that most were lower grades (yellow belts and green belts) that were selected for the day. I do not see any of the real hard guys here - like Tadashi Nakamura, Midori, etc. in ths opponent lineup.

Perhaps Matsui did get a few beatdowns, but obviously these were cleverly edited out of the tape, before it was made for public sale.

Please note that I am by no means discrediting his abilities, or the mental toughness that are needed for the 100-man kumite, but the video does make it seem very 1-sided

[Bloke]

I also heard that some of Kancho Matsuis opponents were lower grades in brown and black belts but I have heard no proof to substantiate it. I accept the point about some of the bigger Kyokushin names (except Tadash Nakamura as he had longe left to form Seido Karate - But where was Kurosawa and Masuda).

All of that to one side I read an Interview with Kancho Matsui after the 100 man kumite and he apologised for some of his actions (he head butted one opponent) and said it was heat of the moment. He does throw an opponent at around 3.12 and follow up with a kick (hardly as hard as he can - in the 87 WT he knocked out Ibrahim Kamal of Iran with a jodan mawashi geri and broke his jaw - if it was the same strength to a downed opponent he would not have moved after). He certainly did some things he shouldnt have done but he is not unique in that - we are all human and all have failings. As for his technique - he is widely regarded in most groups as being one of the best technical fighters ever.

[spanky11]

Originally Posted by Bloke

I also heard that some of Kancho Matsuis opponents were lower grades in brown and black belts but I have heard no proof to substantiate it. I accept the point about some of the bigger Kyokushin names (except Tadash Nakamura as he had longe left to form Seido Karate - But where was Kurosawa and Masuda).

.

My apologies, I meant to say Makoto Nakamura...too much sake when I posted that..

I don't think that the kick done on 3.14 mins was anything too bad. I personally have done that myself once when I got a little overzealous in a grading.

[Bloke]

Spanky11

As I was writing that I was wondering if you meant Makoto Nakamura

[Sensation Black]

to the question of the bad technik:
imagine fighting 100 opponents one after another...after some time you wouldn't care less about the technik but just fight by your instincts.
and that is what one trains for all the years right? to be able to fight without thinking.

because what you really need to win a fight is the will and the power of the body you trained for years. then comes the technik.

[smoothsake]

I've seen the video too and was surprised to see some of Kancho Matsui's unorthodox moves, but the fact of the matter is I've never done a 100 man kumite so I'm not in a position to judge. Seeing that this kumite was performed in front of an audience of respected karateka yudansha, I humbly defer to their good judgement.

[Arjang]

After watching it I think it is there, clear as daylight, throwing a kick while the fight has stopped.
I thing that was fight number 36, by that stage I think people can be excused for not being on their best behaviour, as Sensation Black mentioned, the intincts take over the principals.
Maybe there are many nice people, who do hold on to their principles, who do try to what they believe is right. But poeple should never be judged based on what they do in an extreme situation. Imagine he can Not ask for a break, or take a few days off to continue with rest of the matches. That oponent was giving him grief. So, I guess yes, what he does is disrescpectfull, but at that stage he has 60 more fights to go through.

100 man kumite is torturous and grinding. The expected result is not to win , but to endure it.

As for his oponents lying down for him, who wouldn't?, knowing what he has to endure you would try to take it easy on him, after all this is not a tournement fight. Although I think 100 man kumite is an irrationale,illogical, grinidng, torturouse and a completely pointless task, I have respect for anyone who even tries a 50 man kumite.
He maybe just throws kick at the guy, but just wonder as to what would you be doing in his position.
Regards To all

[RASor]

Osu,

A 100 man kumite is not an easy task. Sosai Masutatsu Oyama established this voluntary test to reveal the quality of Budo, discipline and endurance of the fighter.

Kancho Matsui I am sure had to call upon all his training experience, physical stamina, and mental faculties just to overcome and succeed. Definitely this is not an easy task.

In the case of Sensei Francisco Filho's 100 man kumite, he despite his excellent strategy, started to show signs of fatigue falling down once or twice from 'fist blows/kicks'.

It is easy to judge a fighter and his style of fighting as a viewer especially since we do not undergo the mental and physical ordeal a fighter faces in actual combat/fight.

Still my hats off to Kancho Shokei Matsui, Sensei Francisco Filho & of course Sensei Hajime Kaizume (hopefully his website will have english translation).

Osu!

[Bloke]

Originally Posted by Arjang

As for his oponents lying down for him, who wouldn't?, knowing what he has to endure you would try to take it easy on him, after all this is not a tournement fight. Although I think 100 man kumite is an irrationale,illogical, grinidng, torturouse and a completely pointless task, I have respect for anyone who even tries a 50 man kumite.
He maybe just throws kick at the guy, but just wonder as to what would you be doing in his position.
Regards To all

I dont agree that his opponents would take it easy on him. I have seen Kumite tests in the UK and never saw anyone go easy on the fighter. He or she wants to earn it not be given it by someone taking it easy. I have seen fighters repalced in the line up as they were going too easy and that fight discounted from the total.

[Sonik]

I saw the video it if they were not going easy then they were very weak opponents. And by the time he did thist test, the rules were not that different from what they are today. Nevertheless, it's still a huge test to a man's physical endurance and fighting spirit.

[spanky11]

Originally Posted by Bloke

I dont agree that his opponents would take it easy on him. I have seen Kumite tests in the UK and never saw anyone go easy on the fighter. He or she wants to earn it not be given it by someone taking it easy. I have seen fighters repalced in the line up as they were going too easy and that fight discounted from the total.

agree 110% on this.

It is the same in Australia. Fighters are removed if theya re not making the person earn theiur grading.

It does appear that Matsui's opponents were not really pushing him (again, it can be the editing of the tape though)

[Bloke]

In fairness I do agree that most of his opponents in that HL clip dont seem to be giving him a very hard time. Whatever the reason for this its still a very tough test.