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[Martin H]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

Thanks - this is new to me - any explanation on the embusen or the thoughts behind these kata?

Sorry, no. Im not in IKO1.
Someone posted youtube links on K4L long ago, but I cannot find them now.
They are supposedly included in the official IKO1 Kata DVD series (released 2 years ago or so) with Ryu Narushima, though. But I have not found it intriguing enough to buy them and check.

Searching for vids of The kata, I find out that Soki is also known as "Bo kata 3" and that Chun no kon (or chiun, choun or whatever spelling variation) is known as "Bo kata 2", while "Bo kata 1" is simply "bo kata 1".
Taizen seems like a unarmed kata, though.
http://www.kyokushin-scotland.co.uk/...nd%20Kata.html

[meguro]

Originally Posted by Dent

When the time comes, I will go in a very different route with Kata.

Osu!

Promises, promises.

Looking forward to that day, Dent. Keep me in the loop.

[Dent]

Osu!

Originally Posted by Martin H

I like traditions and I am not negative to kata (although kata +realistic bunkai would be better) but I must say that I dont like the trend of adding kata.

And here are a few kyokushin kata not yet mentioned
TAIZAN -New kata for IKO1, 1 dan. created by Matsui.
SOKI - New kata for IKO1, required for 2 dan
Gankaku - Trad kata from Shotokan. Required in kyokushins childhood, long since removed.
HANGETSU -Trad kata from Shotokan. Required in kyokushins childhood, long since removed.
CHUN NO KON -Bo kata (Kon=okinawan dialect for Bo staff)- Required in kyokushins childhood, long since removed.

Some Kata (originating from shotokan) I have seen referred to as old kyokushin (or possibly even pre-kyokushin, back in the "oyama karate jutsu" days) katas now removed, but have failed to get confirmation on:
Jion
Jitte
Empi.

Agreed.

And YOWZER! Even more?! My CPU can't handle the required load as it is!

Originally Posted by meguro

Promises, promises.

Looking forward to that day, Dent. Keep me in the loop.

Oh, you'll be in that loop all right!

Osu!

[FredInChina]

Katas usually learned first 14

Kihon kata sono 1
Kihon kata sono 2

Taikyoku sono 1 - Grand Ultimate View 1 - Shotokan, Gichin Funakoshi
Taikyoku sono 2 - Grand Ultimate View 2 - Shotokan, Gichin Funakoshi
Taikyoku sono 3 - Grand Ultimate View 3 - Shotokan, Gichin Funakoshi
Taikyoku sono 4

Sokugi Taikyoku sono 1 - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Sokugi Taikyoku sono 2 - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Sokugi Taikyoku sono 3 - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama

Pinan sono 1 - Peaceful Mind 1 - Shuri-Te, Anko Itosu
Pinan sono 2 - Peaceful Mind 2 - Shuri-Te, Anko Itosu
Pinan sono 3 - Peaceful Mind 3 - Shuri-Te, Anko Itosu
Pinan sono 4 - Peaceful Mind 4 - Shuri-Te, Anko Itosu
Pinan sono 5 - Peaceful Mind 5 - Shuri-Te, Anko Itosu


Katas usually learned a bit later 15

Yantsu - Keep Pure
Tsuki No - Punching
Gekisai Dai - Conquer and Occupy Major - Goju Ryu, Chojun Miyagi
Gekisai Sho - Conquer and Occupy Minor - Goju Ryu, Chojun Miyagi
Saiha (Saifa) - Extreme Destruction - Naha Te lineage of Higaonna Kanryo
Bassai Dai
Seienchin - Calm In The Storm - Naha-Te, Kanryo Higashionna
Seipai - 18 Hands - Naha Te lineage of Higaonna Kanryo
kanku dai - Sky Gazing - Tode Sakugawa
sushiho - 54 Steps
Garyu - Reclining Dragon - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama

Tekki sono 1 (Naihanshi ?) - Horse Riding 1 - Shuri-Te, Sokon Matsumura
Tekki sono 2 - Horse Riding 2 - Shuri-Te, Anko Itosu
Tekki sono 3 - Horse Riding 3 - Shuri-Te, Anko Itosu

Taizan - New kata for IKO1, 1 dan. created by Matsui.


Ura Katas: 12

Taikyoku sono 1 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Taikyoku sono 2 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Taikyoku sono 3 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Taikyoku sono 4 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama

Sokugi Taikyoku sono 1 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Sokugi Taikyoku sono 2 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Sokugi Taikyoku sono 3 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama

Pinan sono 1 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Pinan sono 2 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Pinan sono 3 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Pinan sono 4 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama
Pinan sono 5 Ura - Kyokushin, Sosai Oyama


Qi Gong Katas 2

Sanchin - 3 Battles
Tensho - Rotating Palm - Goju Ryu, Chojun Miyagi


Katas of older times (removed) 5

Hangetsu - Shotokan
Gankaku - Shotokan
Jion - "Oyama karate jutsu days"
Jitte - "Oyama karate jutsu days"
Empi - "Oyama karate jutsu days"


Weapons Kata 4

Bo Kata sono 1 - Chion Kata Kyokushin
Bo Kata sono 2 - Chun no kon (or chiun, choun, Chion) - Kyokushin
Bo Kata sono 3 - Soki
Tonfa Kata


Other non kyokushin katas sometimes used

Sanseru
Tetsuhiko Asai Kata


Other katas mentioned that I don't know how to classify - please help!

Soburi Kata
Hiji Kata
Ichigai Kata
Happono No Kazushi (32 movements)


Questions

What about Juji & Jyu No Kata?
Tate version?????


Osu!

[Dent]

Osu!

FredInChina, Saifa/ Saiha and Sepai are also of the Naha Te lineage of Higaonna Kanryo, although the Sepai has been modified to be only a distant relative of the original.

As for the determination of Beginner vs Advanced, I think that's a whole new nest of vipers........

Osu!

[FredInChina]

Osu,

Thank you Sensei, I modified my post accordingly


Osu!

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Katas usually learned a bit later 15

Bassai Dai
Tekki sono 1 (Naihanshi ?) - Horse Riding 1 - Shuri-Te, Sokon Matsumura
Tekki sono 2 - Horse Riding 2 - Shuri-Te, Anko Itosu
Tekki sono 3 - Horse Riding 3 - Shuri-Te, Anko Itosu

I would think the above ones should go under the list of katas of older times as they were the shotokan ones Mas Oyama would have done with Funakoshi.

Taizan - New kata for IKO1, 1 dan. created by Matsui.

Maybe a listing for new developments?

Katas of older times (removed) 5

Jion - "Oyama karate jutsu days"
Jitte - "Oyama karate jutsu days"
Empi - "Oyama karate jutsu days"

These were also and are shotokan kata

Weapons Kata 4

Bo Kata sono 1 - Chion Kata Kyokushin
Bo Kata sono 2 - Chun no kon (or chiun, choun, Chion) - Kyokushin
Bo Kata sono 3 - Soki
Tonfa Kata

In old syllabi of IKO, the Kusarigama was also mentioned. The Kyokushin Kan group seems to be focussing on a lot of weapons kata and other now.

Other non kyokushin katas sometimes used

Sanseru
Tetsuhiko Asai Kata

This would not be as widespread ...

Other katas mentioned that I don't know how to classify - please help!

Soburi Kata
Hiji Kata
Ichigai Kata
Happono No Kazushi (32 movements)

As mentioned, maybe put it as new developments or modern day introductions??

Questions

What about Juji & Jyu No Kata?
Tate version?????

The Juji kata could go as new developments (Kyokushin Kan) - the tate version could be something akin to Ura?

[FredInChina]

Thank you for the comments, suggestions and additions Ashiharakaicho, I'll let it run for a little while and make the proper corrections based on the community's contribution.

What are(is) TATE forms of a kata?


Osu!

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Martin H

Sorry, no. Im not in IKO1.
Someone posted youtube links on K4L long ago, but I cannot find them now.
They are supposedly included in the official IKO1 Kata DVD series (released 2 years ago or so) with Ryu Narushima, though. But I have not found it intriguing enough to buy them and check. Searching for vids of The kata, I find out that Soki is also known as "Bo kata 3" and that Chun no kon (or chiun, choun or whatever spelling variation) is known as "Bo kata 2", while "Bo kata 1" is simply "bo kata 1". Taizen seems like a unarmed kata, though.

Thanks for the feedback - that is what makes learning easier ...

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Thank you for the comments, suggestions and additions Ashiharakaicho, I'll let it run for a little while and make the proper corrections based on the community's contribution. What are(is) TATE forms of a kata? Osu!

You welcome and looking forward to the different groups giving their input.

[Martin H]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

What are(is) TATE forms of a kata?

Tate form of a katas are regular katas done in a specific variation, like the Ura version of Taikyoku and pinan.
Basically, it is kata done on a straight line, with all turns being 180 degree -no turning to the sides or at angles. If there is a turn in the original kata you do it as a full 180 degree turn, always. So you end up walking up and down a straight line while doing the kata.
While I personally do not see the point, it is common in some organizations. I do not think you will see it in a Japanese dojo, though.
I think it originated in north america (read: Canada).

[ashiharakaicho]

Originally Posted by Martin H

Tate form of a katas are regular katas done in a specific variation, like the Ura version of Taikyoku and pinan.
Basically, it is kata done on a straight line, with all turns being 180 degree -no turning to the sides or at angles. If there is a turn in the original kata you do it as a full 180 degree turn, always. So you end up walking up and down a straight line while doing the kata. While I personally do not see the point, it is common in some organizations. I do not think you will see it in a Japanese dojo, though. I think it originated in north america (read: Canada).

I've seen Kancho Matsushima doing it and some members of his organisation. Haven't seen many others doing it though.

[FredInChina]

Thank you Martin_H for this thorough & precise answer
Repped!


OSu!

[jcarmello]

Originally Posted by Martin H

Tate form of a katas are regular katas done in a specific variation, like the Ura version of Taikyoku and pinan.
Basically, it is kata done on a straight line, with all turns being 180 degree -no turning to the sides or at angles. If there is a turn in the original kata you do it as a full 180 degree turn, always. So you end up walking up and down a straight line while doing the kata.
While I personally do not see the point, it is common in some organizations. I do not think you will see it in a Japanese dojo, though.
I think it originated in north america (read: Canada).

When I was with an IKO 3 dojo some years back, we used to do this in the middle of the street at night. We did it quite often, and there seemed to be a preference for rainy and cold days. A bit unnerving with automobiles whizzing by you on both sides. I see very little practical use for this if the associated throws/takedowns are never introduced with a linear kata. (yes folks, there are a few take downs in our katas).

Explanation to me as to why we did this kata??? Confidence builder to help with performing kata outside of 4 walls.

OSU!

[FredInChina]

Ahhh JCarmello, now I remember where I read about this linear training... it was you!

Originally Posted by jcarmello

(...) Explanation to me as to why we did this kata? (...)

Corridor training?


OSu!

[Deaken]

Originally Posted by ashiharakaicho

I am totally in support of this ideology. Learn to understand what there is and work on improving that.



Thanks - this is new to me - any explanation on the embusen or the thoughts behind these kata?

They are also new to me. Didn't see them at Mitsumine and have not heard about them yet but maybe we will soon.

[polarbearfighter]

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Ahhh JCarmello, now I remember where I read about this linear training... it was you!



Corridor training?


OSu!

reminds me of a prison karate style that a guy developed in a small prison cell
I was never able to judge for myself whether it was a just a joke or something serious.

here's a video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbUsmDZyENI


Karateka Slobodan Radojev Mitric, known by the nickname KARATE BOB, trained from his sixteenth year in the traditional Shotokan Karate Style ...
...
KARATE BOB wound up in prison, where he spent a total of more than 17 years ...
But from the first day of captivity, Karate Bob did not give up.
The cells in which he was imprisoned, were everywhere less than 2 meters wide and 3 meters long. ...
...
KARATE BOB DECIDED TO TO CREATE A NEW KARATE STYLE!
He christened it:
CEL-CAN-DO
KARATE BOB modified Zen Kutsu-dachi, Kokutcu Dachi, Kiba dachi and all other Karate positions down to very short movements (steps), so that in this small space a really new KARATE STYLE was born: "SLOMIBO CEL-CAN-DO"

but now I have really gone off topic, sorry about that.

[Spirit]

Ten No Kata is one I do not see noted...

[FredInChina]

Osu Spirit, thank you for that.
Can you tell me more about Ten No Kata?


OSu!


[edit] I looked it up (thank you Google )
Apparently it is a kata created by Gishin Funakoshi as a way to train beginners on the stability of the stances and basic techniques.
Here are 3 links where it is described:
http://www.tjska.com/ten_no_kata_omote.html
http://www.cleckheatonkarate.co.uk/tennokat.pdf
http://havasukarate.com/TEN-NO-KATA.html

Are you practicing/teaching this kata at Kuma Karate Spirit?
Do you know of other kyokushin dojos/orgs that are using it?

Osu!

[Spirit]

It's all about how much green your willing to let go for the info......


As I understand it (which is limited) it was an early shotokan training kata.
It is not a I, or H, or even angle paten kata.
It starts and end in yoi dachi, stepping out & back into Zen;
It has 10 phases or groups of basic blocks and punches...
It is actually one of my favorite kata's.
Bunkai is not needed since it is more of common sense/learning etc type kata.

I'm sure it was or had its introduction into Kyokushin either through Oyama or the converter Branch chiefs/Yudansha that came to Kyokushin in the 60-70's.

Originally Posted by FredInChina

Osu Spirit, thank you for that.
Can you tell me more about Ten No Kata?


OSu!

[Martin H]

reading old post from myself (?!? -apparently my memory keeps getting worse) on a similar thread here on the forum, I find out that taizan is a tonfa kata.

While I cannot prove it, i THINK (or strongly suspect) that the kyokushin Taizan and Soki are versions of these kata (done here by oyama karate guys in Poland). If so they are hardly a invention of Matsui:
taizan

You Tube

Soki

You Tube

And here we have bo kata 1 & 2 from IKO1 in scotland

You Tube

You Tube